HMPC0409 - Something Blue

[bdegrande]

Discuss. The beginning of Spuffy?

[mike.gollihue]

   I always thought 'Becoming' was the slight beginning of Spuffy

[hellmouth]

I think that Becoming is a bit of a stretch as the true beginning of Spuffy only because we only see Spike once in all of season 3. I think it is much easier to claim Spuffy in season 4.

[beth]

I see Spuffy.  Everywhere.

Including in School Hard.  That's right, people.  You heard me.  SCHOOL HARD.

[FaithLehane]

I see Spuffy.  Everywhere.

Including in School Hard.  That's right, people.  You heard me.  SCHOOL HARD.

It's that scene when Spike is watching Buffy dance with Willow/Xander at the Bronze.
Hindsight and retrospect and every other words that means looking back at some with all the info is a Great thing.Lol

[BlasterBoy]

Great podcast, guys! I'm 40 minutes in right now and still have about another half hour left, but I wanted to just say some quick things before I forgot.

I think Spuffy probably started in season 4, and I think it was probably the writers' idea before the fans. I know that everyone was huge Spike fans when the show was airing and that's why he was brought back again and again. It just seems logical that one way for the writers to hold onto Spike was to make him fall in love with Buffy. It would fit his character anyways and he could still be evil and yet logically fit his way onto the show (see: season 5). Spike in season 4 makes very little sense to me from a plot perspective and I think it's because the writers were trying to figure out a way to deal with him and "Something Blue" was one of their little experiments.

Also, I'm at the part now where you guys are talking about how Buffy doesn't see herself as the law, but I'd disagree with you there. In "Selfless", she comes out and says, "I am the law". That's why Buffy is so stressed out and that's the reason she crumbles apart sometimes. It's not just because she has to save people, I think that's more Angel's mindset. I think it's also because Buffy thinks she has to even the scale and that she has to win where others have failed. Buffy is very emotional and that's why I think Buffy would have killed Spike in season 4.

[beth]

I see Spuffy.  Everywhere.

Including in School Hard.  That's right, people.  You heard me.  SCHOOL HARD.

It's that scene when Spike is watching Buffy dance with Willow/Xander at the Bronze.
Hindsight and retrospect and every other words that means looking back at some with all the info is a Great thing.Lol

But of course, looking back and using canon is what Buffy writers do better than anyone!

And, yes, that scene at the Bronze, but also (and I apologize if I'm repeating myself from other posts): Spike poking at Buffy through the ceiling with a big, long pole; Spike and Buffy agreeing to abandon weapons in favor of hand-to-hand combat (even though they make Spike feel all manly); Spike smelling the blood of a ripe young girl, when Buffy is menstruating.  Also, the fact that Spike is pretty much sex on legs.  And, JM has said in numerous interviews that he played Spike with a strong undercurrent of sexual attraction/predation toward Buffy, and it shows!

[mike.gollihue]

I think that Becoming is a bit of a stretch as the true beginning of Spuffy only because we only see Spike once in all of season 3. I think it is much easier to claim Spuffy in season 4.

   I don't think it was too big of a stretch. The actions Spike took in these two episodes split him and Dru up. I know Dru is a nut job but she's right a lot of the time. She left Spike because the slayer was all over him. If he never helped Buffy and instead just grabbed Dru and got out of Dodge, Spike and Dru may still be together today. He may never have come back to Sunnydale and Spuffy as we know it may have never took plac in the first place. Also as far as fandom for Spuffy I believe this episode started it all. We see Spike and Buffy in a shaky union and saw how they could play off each other. I truly believe Spuffy would not have happened if the fans didn't clamour for it as much as they did. Wasn't Spike supposed to be dusted in season 2 but he was such a fam fav that Joss kept him around?

[CharlieK]

I've no fact to back this up, but I've always though that the writers just paired Buffy and Spike in this episode, saw that it worked, and later did it properly.

Also about Oz: for some reason, I think the "he's really gone" scene is aimed at the audience as well. This is the third episode since Wild at Heart, and we haven't really dealt with Oz leaving - much like Willow and/or the Scoobies. Yes, Seth Green has been removed from the opening credits, but there has been so much stuff going on, that at least I completely forgot about Oz when watching the series for the first time.

[Zesty_Mordant]

Just listened to this episode and I want to address a couple of points Angie made.  (Hi Angie!)

1. About Willow being an addict.  I disagree, I don't think Willow is an addict yet and her actions in this episode cannot be blamed on the problems that addicts experience.  What we see her are a couple of flaws in Willow's character, which will eventually lead to her addiction.  

Firstly she has a tendency to look for the easy way out of situations where she is uncomfortable or in pain, as you guys mentioned.  This is not surprising in a girl who spent most of her young life as the shy wallflower who was regularly the target of scorn for the 'popular' girls like Cordelia and Harmony.  In many ways her use of magic has allowed Willow to become more confident and blossom as a person, but it didn't help the tendency to look for an easy way out, it fuelled that tendency.  That way lies addiction.

Secondly, Willow finds it very difficult to deal with loss.  The loss of Oz almost crushes her.  When Buffy dies she is unable to go through a normal grieving process and move on, she uses incredibly dangerous magic to bring Buffy back.  Yes, she had help, but it's clear Willow was the driving force behind this.  Then when Tara dies she tries to destroy the world in order to end her pain!  So, as I say, she has a hard time dealing with loss.  I'm no psychologist, but isn't this what you'd expect from a young person with deep-seated abandonment issues stemming from her parents apparent lack of interest in her, their only child?  I don't know whether the writers delved so much into their characters psyches as I am doing here, but it certainly seems to hang together.

My overall point is that Willow, as much as I adore her, has issues, but addiction is not yet one of them.

2.  Angie also makes the point about how Buffy's role as the slayer is as a protector, rather than the arbiter of justice.  This I completely agree with.  Apart from the neutered-Spike situation, look at the Season 3 episode "Enemies" when they discover the body of the demon who had tried to sell them the Books of Ascension.  Buffy is bothered by the scene because she differentiates between genuine monsters who need to be stopped and this guy who was effectively harmless.  Faith on the other hand seems genuinely confused by Buffy's reaction, saying "A demon's a demon".  And I don't think that was because Faith happened to have killed the demon either, to her slaying was all about the kill.

Once Spike is no longer able to directly harm humans Buffy can't just stake him.  Obviously he's still evil and could do a lot of damage through other agents, but without any evidence of that Buffy lets him live.  She doesn't take retribution for the countless lives Spike has destroyed beforehand as her role is to protect those still alive.

Thoughts?  I know I've gone on at length about an episode everyone stopped discussing weeks ago!