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hellmouth
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« on: January 19, 2011, 10:44:09 AM » |
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Happy Birthday Buffy!
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-bryan
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FaithLehane
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'Arf Arf Psycho'
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 11:15:11 AM » |
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WOOOOO HOOOOOOO  The Buffster is 30 Today A Good Ep to celebrate with......I will listen to it befor I go to bed  |
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5x5
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FaithLehane
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 01:17:10 PM » |
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I know this is a season from now but
Your 1st email(Can't remember who wrote it Sorry)
Was talking about Burdens and was it right for Buffy to tell the Scoobies in 'WTTH' that she was The Slayer.
That moment in the series inevitaibly makes me flash forward 4 seasons to when she chooses NOT to tell the Scoobies that Dawn is/was the Key, I never quite understood why that was the point in the series she thought she should keep her mouth shut about something that really affected her friends & Xander even says "As Opposed to the danger we're ALWAYS in".
I know she learnt alot in S5...and that it was all heading toward her sacrifice in 'The Gift'.
But why was Dawn/Glory the tipping point??
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bigbad
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 04:56:43 AM » |
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Listened to half the podcast this morning will listen to the rest before bed tonight. I paused it in the middle of your speech about Angel and Buffy's relationship being doomed because of that old gypsy curse and his moment of feeling true happiness. I heard you bring this up in a few different podcasts about well if Angel was truly happy and in love he would be trying to kill her right? And that any moment during their relationship when he isn't truly happy and spawning into Angelus it makes his current feelings for Buffy pretty much meh.
In my opinion I think you are pretty much taking the curse a little too literal word for word and cheapening the curse. Allow me to establish some facts about the curse and what I think are the key points in triggering it.
FACT#1 It isn't based solely on sex due to him sleeping and having a relationship with Darla and werewolf girl Nina Ash and nothing happening. Also when he was Angel prior to meeting Buffy it was established that he slept with the three Furies that cast the no demon violence protection spell on Lorne's bar Caritas.
FACT# 2 It isn't based solely about love in his heart or else we would be seeing a lot more of Angelus during his non sexual relationship with Buffy and him being full fledged in love with Cordillia. Also he was under Jasmine's love spell of her being the perfect romantic and spiritual being and Angelus didn't resurface. His love for Jasmine made Angel want to kill but not the emergence of Angelus.
FACT# 3 It isn't based on unconditional love or else at the moment that he saw his son Conner he would have felt pure joy for the love and birth of his son that the love of Buffy herself couldn't hold a candle to that.
I think the curse has two triggers and one is directed more towards a climax in Angel's soul. Not just a sexual climax but more like an emotional peak as if once he gets that feeling of perfect love in his heart and soul. The second trigger is those feelings must be returned in the same equal manner as he is giving off. Lets think about that for a second... Okay second up. The curse isn't purely based on what he feels in him it is also on what somebody feels for him. Love is a two way street. So when Angel killed the gypsy girl who was a favorite amongst her clan. He took the life and love out of the girl and in the process equally took the life and love out of the gypsy clan. They wanted vengeance so bad that they gave Angelus the demon a soul and the ability to feel remorse, love and pretty much be human again and Angelus had to sit dormant and absorb those emotions that evil vampires hate. Then they applied the 2nd part of the curse which was if anybody taps into this demons soul and if somebody allows this demon into their soul then Angelus will be released and will target, torment and kill those that Angel held dear and Angel and his soul will have to sit back and watch and endure the pain (hence Angel feeling embarrassed and apologetic every time his soul is restored and he is in control again). The gypsy clan didn't care what would happen to the good people that Angel cared about, innocent people in general or the fate of the world if Angelus got loose on society again. In their minds if you had feelings or did anything kind for Angel/Angelus then you deserved to be punished and hurt as well in a similar fashion as they were hurt when Angel killed their favorite gypsy girl centuries ago. Basically curse you and anybody who loves you.
I think that the moment that Buffy and Angel slept together they both in their hearts thought they had a perfect future together and a special one of a kind love. Now after they know the consequences of both of them feeling perfect bliss towards one another it is reason alone to believe no matter what they do they can never have perfect bliss ever again UNLESS the curse is lifted. Knowing there is a curse should give them the okay to do whatever they want with each other because guess what they would know their relationship isn't perfect because of well the curse itself. They could go on and have a sex filled ordinary love just like the rest of us. But since this is TV it isn't about a comfortable ordinary everyday love it is about feeling butterflies in both your tummies for the rest of the days of your lives.
So when Willow restored Angel's soul and the curse the only chance that the Angelus could return naturally is if him and Connor shared that perfect moment of love and happiness between a father and a son. Thanks to Holtz and the betrayal from Wesley they made sure that Angel and Connor would have a dysfunctional relationship at best.
Anyways the curse lost its luster once Angel realized what it was. Angel, Buffy, Giles, the watcher manuals and scrolls had no clue what would happen if the curse was lifted and what could lift it. Even Jenny Calander and her Uncle Enyos had no clue what would happen if Angel felt and received pure happiness and love they just knew it was an emotion they were raised to believe he shouldn't experience for what he did to their ancestors.
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 05:04:54 AM by bigbad »
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FaithLehane
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 07:47:21 AM » |
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@BigBad
That was a Big thought
I enjoyed reading it.
I think people overanalyze the curse.
If the veil can drop by way of a Mickey in your Whisky...Which it did in Angel S1 'Eternity'.
The Gypsies curse is flawed bigtime.
Not Sex with Buffy .....Not even a non-sexual connection with Buffy is enough to release Angelus.
What we know for sure is removing his soul leads to unpleasentness.
In S3 of Angel there is an ep(called 'Double Or Nothing')wherein a soul collector comes for Gunn....the english flunky tells Gunn that he was going to give his Soul to Fred.
I guess my point is the trigger is giving yourself to someone soooo completely that your soul is now their soul...and you become one.(Which Sajihan plays with in the prophecy& lead to some scary Wes/Angel scenes)
I think thats what happened the night Buffy & Angel slept together.
I also think if Joss wasn't sooo hell bent on going down the Boyfriend changes after Sex road that Angel could have lost his soul in the moment without sex.
The look they share befor they disrobe(and make sweaty nasty love)is one of two people connecting on a deeper level .......DEEPER than Love/Sex.
Anywho that was a rambling mess...Bye Lol
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5x5
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bdegrande
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 12:44:15 PM » |
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Listened to half the podcast this morning will listen to the rest before bed tonight. I paused it in the middle of your speech about Angel and Buffy's relationship being doomed because of that old gypsy curse and his moment of feeling true happiness. I heard you bring this up in a few different podcasts about well if Angel was truly happy and in love he would be trying to kill her right? And that any moment during their relationship when he isn't truly happy and spawning into Angelus it makes his current feelings for Buffy pretty much meh.
In my opinion I think you are pretty much taking the curse a little too literal word for word and cheapening the curse. Allow me to establish some facts about the curse and what I think are the key points in triggering it.
FACT#1 It isn't based solely on sex due to him sleeping and having a relationship with Darla and werewolf girl Nina Ash and nothing happening. Also when he was Angel prior to meeting Buffy it was established that he slept with the three Furies that cast the no demon violence protection spell on Lorne's bar Caritas.
FACT# 2 It isn't based solely about love in his heart or else we would be seeing a lot more of Angelus during his non sexual relationship with Buffy and him being full fledged in love with Cordillia. Also he was under Jasmine's love spell of her being the perfect romantic and spiritual being and Angelus didn't resurface. His love for Jasmine made Angel want to kill but not the emergence of Angelus.
FACT# 3 It isn't based on unconditional love or else at the moment that he saw his son Conner he would have felt pure joy for the love and birth of his son that the love of Buffy herself couldn't hold a candle to that.
I think the curse has two triggers and one is directed more towards a climax in Angel's soul. Not just a sexual climax but more like an emotional peak as if once he gets that feeling of perfect love in his heart and soul. The second trigger is those feelings must be returned in the same equal manner as he is giving off. Lets think about that for a second... Okay second up. The curse isn't purely based on what he feels in him it is also on what somebody feels for him. Love is a two way street. So when Angel killed the gypsy girl who was a favorite amongst her clan. He took the life and love out of the girl and in the process equally took the life and love out of the gypsy clan. They wanted vengeance so bad that they gave Angelus the demon a soul and the ability to feel remorse, love and pretty much be human again and Angelus had to sit dormant and absorb those emotions that evil vampires hate. Then they applied the 2nd part of the curse which was if anybody taps into this demons soul and if somebody allows this demon into their soul then Angelus will be released and will target, torment and kill those that Angel held dear and Angel and his soul will have to sit back and watch and endure the pain (hence Angel feeling embarrassed and apologetic every time his soul is restored and he is in control again). The gypsy clan didn't care what would happen to the good people that Angel cared about, innocent people in general or the fate of the world if Angelus got loose on society again. In their minds if you had feelings or did anything kind for Angel/Angelus then you deserved to be punished and hurt as well in a similar fashion as they were hurt when Angel killed their favorite gypsy girl centuries ago. Basically curse you and anybody who loves you.
I think that the moment that Buffy and Angel slept together they both in their hearts thought they had a perfect future together and a special one of a kind love. Now after they know the consequences of both of them feeling perfect bliss towards one another it is reason alone to believe no matter what they do they can never have perfect bliss ever again UNLESS the curse is lifted. Knowing there is a curse should give them the okay to do whatever they want with each other because guess what they would know their relationship isn't perfect because of well the curse itself. They could go on and have a sex filled ordinary love just like the rest of us. But since this is TV it isn't about a comfortable ordinary everyday love it is about feeling butterflies in both your tummies for the rest of the days of your lives.
So when Willow restored Angel's soul and the curse the only chance that the Angelus could return naturally is if him and Connor shared that perfect moment of love and happiness between a father and a son. Thanks to Holtz and the betrayal from Wesley they made sure that Angel and Connor would have a dysfunctional relationship at best.
Anyways the curse lost its luster once Angel realized what it was. Angel, Buffy, Giles, the watcher manuals and scrolls had no clue what would happen if the curse was lifted and what could lift it. Even Jenny Calander and her Uncle Enyos had no clue what would happen if Angel felt and received pure happiness and love they just knew it was an emotion they were raised to believe he shouldn't experience for what he did to their ancestors.
Brilliant post, and I suspect that you put more thought into making these events hang together consistently than the Buffy/Angel writers did. |
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:38:36 PM by bdegrande »
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MikeFromTheUK
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 04:26:54 PM » |
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[snip]
Brilliant post, and I suspect that you put more thought into making these events hang together consistently than the Buffy/Angle writers did.
It is a well-known tendency of fans to put a lot more thought into the canon, internal consistency and mechanics of the fictional universes than most writers ever have. Not surprising; there's millions of us to every one of them. |
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hellmouth
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 07:50:04 PM » |
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I am intimidated by the length of BigBad's post. Very strong arguments, I am anxious to begin talking about Cordelia and Angel's relationship because I have lot's to say about that.
The cures was obviously not the most consistent plot element in the Buffyverse but I don't agree with your statement that merely by knowing about the consequences of the curse; Buffy and Angel could have a normal relationship without risking true happiness or the lifting of the curse. I will talk about it more in the podcast... good stuff. Great post bigbad!
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-bryan
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bigmoneygrip
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 10:49:23 AM » |
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Not finished with the podcast, so I apologize if this repeats what was said, but some things that struck me were how ugly Xander was to Cordelia. Lots of times his barbs are in response to hers, but he seemed to seek her out to be ugly. I'm a big Xander fan (going to meet him this Friday!!!!!) but this made me ill. Next was how Wesley is consistent with his fight/battle strategy between here and when he was the leader in Pylea. He's not hesitant to sacrifice his soldiers for an important victory.
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smartgirl63
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 03:07:45 PM » |
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It is a well-known tendency of fans to put a lot more thought into the canon, internal consistency and mechanics of the fictional universes than most writers ever have. Not surprising; there's millions of us to every one of them. [/quote] And we have plenty of time to analyze and re-analyze, when they have deadlines. I find it so interesting how much ownership I feel for shows I really love, like Buffy and The Simpsons. And when I feel like the writers mess up, I take it personally. |
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smartgirl63
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 03:08:50 PM » |
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The conversation between Willow and Buffy, when Willow tells Buffy she's going to UCSD, makes me cry every time. I think it's the sweetest thing ever.
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bigmoneygrip
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 06:14:12 PM » |
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The conversation between Willow and Buffy, when Willow tells Buffy she's going to UCSD, makes me cry every time. I think it's the sweetest thing ever.
I know. One of the million things I love about this show is the actors did an awesome job over the years of making us care about their relationships so we (translate, "I") am really moved emotionally when the characters have moment like this. |
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