Once In A Lifetime.....(Unless Your A Vampire,Of Course)-S4 Discussion

[FaithLehane]

I feel like I should be clear
I liked Connor from his birth right up until he dropped Angel into the Pacific
and I thought he was interesting in s5,My problem with Connor only lies in s4 .....When I assumed he'd been in the world long enough to know what is right and wrong....but for some reason he still chose wrong everytime.

[Princessmela]

Oh yeah dropping his father in pacific and the whole Cordelia debacle made me "hate" Connor at that point.  I am not a Connor fan, not by a long shot.   I think Angel made the right decision by "killing" him.  I am not sure there was much more that could be done at that point.  But I can't help but feel that Connor truly was a tragic character that until Angel let go of, was damaged beyond repair.

[Princessmela]

But on a lesser level the same could be said for dawn and buffy they both did a lot of lying.  I think Connor was crying for help but I'm not sure there was much of a cure at that point.  I guess I have a hard time hating a character that could have been very different,  but with that said even human Darla and Angel were never spectacular people so it's hard to say if they would have turned out differently or not..,,

[FaithLehane]

Yeah
Dawn,Connor and even Ben, Can be placed in the same catergory.
All three were pawns in a Gods plan to destroy the world and all three did (Mostly) nothing but dig the hole deeper for themselves.
Even Ben was a Brat (in specific scenes,I do enjoy Ben though.Charlie Webber is Damn Cute) about his situation....I feel for them they didn't ask for any of what happened to them and I reckon they would have asked never to have been born.

Connor has this line ,that I'm totally going to butcher because I can't remember it properly or what ep he says it in.
But basically he questions what he is....there isn't an answer.
Except for the Miracle Child Thing.

The fact is he's the son of a Prostitute and a womanizing lout...even without the Vamp stuff that Kid was bound to be messedup.

[smartgirl63]

Well, I finally finished Season 4. I feel like the writers threw everything at us. Man, so many twists and turns that I did not see coming. And I can't believe Zoe was the Big Bad! I really thought the Cordy/Connor relationship was utterly creepy. But when I found out Cordelia was all evil, I felt so much better. I just couldn't believe Cordelia had slept with Connor in her right mind. I didn't like Connor as a baby or as a teenager, but now that Season 4 is over, I view him with much less contempt. And I think the actor who played Connor did a great job.
I am glad Wesley redeemed himself. I like the line where Gunn asks, "What happened to you, man?" and Wesley says, "My throat was cut, and all my friends abandoned me." So true. The exchange between Wesley and Willow was so awesome. I'm surprised that Willow couldn't sense Cordelia's true intentions.
I can't believe sweet Fred would murder anyone. Did that seem true to character to any of you? I know she was hurting, but I just couldn't see it. I really thought Gunn and Fred were going to last.
Why wasn't Sunnydale affected by the whole Jasmine lovefest? Was it because everyone had already evacuated or the tv reception was out in Sunnydale? I assume they get the L.A. stations. Also, I wonder if Jasmine and The First were familiar with each other and if they were adversaries.
I loved Faith's return. I disliked Faith on Buffy but have come to love her character now.

[bdegrande]

Well, I finally finished Season 4. I feel like the writers threw everything at us. Man, so many twists and turns that I did not see coming. And I can't believe Zoe was the Big Bad! I really thought the Cordy/Connor relationship was utterly creepy. But when I found out Cordelia was all evil, I felt so much better. I just couldn't believe Cordelia had slept with Connor in her right mind. I didn't like Connor as a baby or as a teenager, but now that Season 4 is over, I view him with much less contempt. And I think the actor who played Connor did a great job.
I am glad Wesley redeemed himself. I like the line where Gunn asks, "What happened to you, man?" and Wesley says, "My throat was cut, and all my friends abandoned me." So true. The exchange between Wesley and Willow was so awesome. I'm surprised that Willow couldn't sense Cordelia's true intentions.
I can't believe sweet Fred would murder anyone. Did that seem true to character to any of you? I know she was hurting, but I just couldn't see it. I really thought Gunn and Fred were going to last.
Why wasn't Sunnydale affected by the whole Jasmine lovefest? Was it because everyone had already evacuated or the tv reception was out in Sunnydale? I assume they get the L.A. stations. Also, I wonder if Jasmine and The First were familiar with each other and if they were adversaries.
I loved Faith's return. I disliked Faith on Buffy but have come to love her character now.

I had the flip side of that experience. I saw Firefly after having watched Angel S4 and Buffy S7, and was appalled that I was supposed to be rooting for Caleb and Jasmine. I figured, "OK, this is a Joss Whedon show, when are they going to turn evil?"

[FaithLehane]

There is abit of solace in knowing that Cordy was posessed by Jasmine the whole time.
But you still have the image to contend with....and it's a hard piece of footage to forget.Lol
Agreed Re: Vincent's acting.
For me Wesley never had to redeem himself,I'm always going to feel like they left....when he needed them most.
Wesley never intended to give Connor to Holtz or Justine....his plan was the same as Holtz',Take Connor raise him as his own and come back when it was safe.
Yeah,On original viewing I remember sitting there thinking why the hell can't Willow tell that Cordy isn't herself.
These days I just think eh Willows hyped to be doing the spell and is happy to see Cordy that any bizzareness is ignored.
I think Fred wanted to kill the not so good professor,Could she go through with it?I'm less sure.
I think it was in Character ,He ruined her life and countless others.
Gunn actually snapping his neck is what threw me ...I've never understood why he just didn't let him fall into the portal.
Either way Pr.Seidel dies.
It did look for awhile that Fred&Gunn were going to live happily ever after...I remember being upset that they had brokenup...but I was always on the Wes&Fred team.

As for why Sunnydale wasn't affected,In 'Awakening'(or 'Souless') the newsreporter says that that the sun being out is only affecting L.A but will eventually take over the whole world,the same scenario applies to Jasmines Lovefest..she had to gather enough strength to spread the love worldwide.
Also at this point in Buffy power has been cut and  the remaining civilians are living in darkness.
 
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Faith & Willow in their Angely eps.
Also that convo between Willow & Wes is freaking hilarious.

And Willow's comment about Connor ,aren't you glad I didn't spoil that for you?Lol

Okay so I have specific Q.'s now
How'd you like 'Spin The Bottle'?
What was your reaction to Angelus being back?and the fakeout ep 'Awakening'.
Did you gasp when Cordy/Jasmine killed Lilah?
Do you love 'Orpheus' as much as I do?Lol
and how did you feel about the s4 finale 'Home'?

[Princessmela]

But when would it have been safe for him to come back?  I did always feel for Wesley but he should have trusted Angel more.

[FaithLehane]

But when would it have been safe for him to come back?  I did always feel for Wesley but he should have trusted Angel more.

I believe the intention was to find a way to stop the prophecy or at the very least find out every aspect of it...then tell Angel.
In the context of the show coming back would have been safe when Sahjhan was taken care of.
but the odds were stacked against him Holtz&Justine,Sahjhan,Lilah....and W&H.
It's not like Wes didn't try to tell Angel....he did and thats when W&H let the earthquake hit.
Look at it this way if Holtz&Justine weren't in the picture...he would have left with Connor,Found out what he needed to stop the Prophecy & come back.
His plan only went south because Justine slit his throat.

The essence of his plan was the right thing to do in that sitation.
Could he have tried harder to tell Angel of course but Wes has the unfortuanate role of doing what the others can't/shouldn't do.

[Princessmela]

I'm going to refrain from commenting till I finish my rewatch of angel actually.  I'm just going to get into trouble at this point.

[FaithLehane]

I'm going to refrain from commenting till I finish my rewatch of angel actually.  I'm just going to get into trouble at this point.

Trouble?
How?Lol

[bdegrande]

Spin The Bottle is one of my favorites, sort of an Angel version of Band Candy or Tabula Rasa. I have always loved the episodes where reality is altered somehow, and seeing the Angel characters in that sort of circumstance was fun.  By the way, Gunn's "transitive nightfall of diamonds" reference in this episode is a quote from the Grateful Dead song "Dark Star". a little Joss tip of the hat as Amber Benson singing their songs with Joss was one of the things which led to doing Once More With Feeling.

[FaithLehane]

Spin The Bottle is one of my favorites, sort of an Angel version of Band Candy or Tabula Rasa. I have always loved the episodes where reality is altered somehow, and seeing the Angel characters in that sort of circumstance was fun.  By the way, Gunn's "transitive nightfall of diamonds" reference in this episode is a quote from the Grateful Dead song "Dark Star". a little Joss tip of the hat as Amber Benson singing their songs with Joss was one of the things which led to doing Once More With Feeling.

I'm a Big Fan of the eps were everyone acts different I love escaping the norm every now & then.
Hmmm.....they were grooving to the Grateful Dead at those Joss parties?Lol awesome.
I figured it would have been more mainstream music.

[smartgirl63]

For the record, I also thought Wesley was in the right. I meant that he and the others were reunited. I was Team Wes all the way.

I loved Spin the Bottle! I'm with Bob, in that I very much like eps like Tabula Rasa where things are different. As soon as Cordy started talking, I realized what had happened and thought, "Ah, Tabula Rasa!"

I loved Awakening. I didn't know it was a fakeout until the end when Cordy was talking to Angel before they got in bed together. I realized it was too good to be true.

Angelus is my favorite Big Bad. I loved seeing him again. I was really worried that he was going to kill Fred. I am on the edge of my seat since Doyle died. I interviewed Tim Minear and got the sense that other characters die, and I'm very worried. I thought for sure another main character would die before the season ended.

Although watching Cordelia kill Lilah was upsetting, it was no competition for the whole relationship with Connor. To quote the sea captain from the Simpsons, "That's gonna replace the whale in my nightmares."

I know that I've gone on and on about Connor, but he was so very creepy. I'm wondering if it was the weird five o'clock shadow thing he had going on. Oh, yeah, and the whole sex with Cordy thing had a role to play, too. Ick.

[smartgirl63]

Btw, what does the topic title refer to, Missy?