Hellmouth Newbie from New Zealand :D

[BananaBuffy]

Well, I am probably the youngest and the newest Buffy convert on this entire website at fifteen years old. I can only hope that I'm mature for my age or...I hope I come over that way in writing.

My name is Savannah and I come from New Zealand...yay! I come from the land of the sheep. Actually, we don't have that many sheep here. I don't know how that rumour got around. But anyhow, I don't come from America...I'm sure you got that.

I was introduced to Buffy last year for the first time and watched it in the space of around 2 months. The first episode I watched was Once More, With Feeling and me being a musical type I took to it right away.

Just a heads up, Spike is awesome and I am actually a fan of season six.
So yeah That's me.

[smartgirl63]

Welcome to the Hellmouth! I love Spike and S6, too.

[hellmouth]

Welcome to the Hellmouth Empire Forums!

[FaithLehane]

Probably got started by the Dicks I mean jokesters that thought telling people we aussies ride Kangaroo's was funny

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE S6 & Spike

[BananaBuffy]

Probably got started by the Dicks I mean jokesters that thought telling people we aussies ride Kangaroo's was funny

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE S6 & Spike

LOL, yeah. Those dicks have some pretty amusing stereotypes. Next they'll be telling people that we RIDE sheep.

Season Six and Spike rule

[bdegrande]

Interesting. A large part of what I hate about season 6 is what a pathetic loser Spike is portrayed as. He has become the "Buffy-whipped" vampire he once accused Angelus of being.

[beth]

I love Spike to such a degree that it probably borders on the unhealthy, and I am also a huge season 6 fan.  I understand why people have difficulty with season 6 -- it's certainly very dark and incredibly disturbing. The writers took enormous risks in making characters behave in ways that were distasteful and upsetting and alienating to viewers, but I think those risks were taken in an effort to explore themes that were extremely complicated and questions that lacked easy answers.  I don't see Spike as being a loser during season 6, but I do see him as being abused and terribly damaged and hitting rock bottom; most of the characters reach rock bottom during season 6 in one way or another, and that's tough to see.

I certainly agree that season 6 is flawed; there are several things that happen that I see as mistakes by the writers; and watching it can be anxiety-producing and stressful and make me angry at times.  But the subject matter is so complex and ambitious, and the emotional response it evokes in me is so real and raw, that flaws and all, it's my favorite season.

Sorry for going on.  Needless to say, I feel strongly about this. And hi there, BananaBuffy!

[bdegrande]

I love Spike to such a degree that it probably borders on the unhealthy, and I am also a huge season 6 fan.  I understand why people have difficulty with season 6 -- it's certainly very dark and incredibly disturbing. The writers took enormous risks in making characters behave in ways that were distasteful and upsetting and alienating to viewers, but I think those risks were taken in an effort to explore themes that were extremely complicated and questions that lacked easy answers.  I don't see Spike as being a loser during season 6, but I do see him as being abused and terribly damaged and hitting rock bottom; most of the characters reach rock bottom during season 6 in one way or another, and that's tough to see.

I certainly agree that season 6 is flawed; there are several things that happen that I see as mistakes by the writers; and watching it can be anxiety-producing and stressful and make me angry at times.  But the subject matter is so complex and ambitious, and the emotional response it evokes in me is so real and raw, that flaws and all, it's my favorite season.

Sorry for going on.  Needless to say, I feel strongly about this. And hi there, BananaBuffy!

There are people that I respect a lot whose favorite season is season 6, and I have no problem with that.  My problem with the season isn't that it is dark and disturbing AT ALL, though, I am a Dexter fan. I just think that it is incredibly badly written, and I think the reason is that Joss was spread too thin between Buffy, Angel, and Firefly at the time, When a writer as gifted as Jane Espenson can write something like Doublemeat Palace, something is seriously wrong with the creative direction.

My major problem is that almost every character, Spike most definitely included (and I love Spike also) behaves in ways that are totally inconsistent with how they are played previously, so much so that I don't trust any new character trait that appears for the first time after season 5 (including the season 8 comics).  I think that Hell's Bells is the worst offender here, but there are many.

There is a lot I love in season 6 - the whole Dark Willow arc, Xander saving the world while Buffy is helpless, the Trio,Once More With Feeling,  some hints of maturity from Dawn, etc. but there is also a long stretch of episodes which is as bad as Buffy gets, The whole magic=drugs comparison is incredibly ham fisted.  They took a similar message from Beer Bad, removed the humor, and stretched it out over half a season.

Lastly, if Spike were a female character in an abusive relationship, would people be nearly as willing to accept it?

[FaithLehane]

Lastly, if Spike were a female character in an abusive relationship, would people be nearly as willing to accept it?

I for one can't stand the way Buffy treated Spike in S6.
My big problem with S6 Spike is the fact that he takes all that BS from Buffy and when he does standup for himself it's in the form of attempted rape(thanks to the writers ).
I know Spike has a history of taking alot from the women he loved.
But I can't buy that he let the Buffy abuse last sooooooooo long.

 

[beth]

[Lastly, if Spike were a female character in an abusive relationship, would people be nearly as willing to accept it?

There is a great essay about this but I can't remember what site it's on.  I'll look for it and post it later. I agree absolutely that Buffy's treatment of Spike is horribly abusive in season 6, and not acceptable or excusable in any way. Very hard to not be furious at her, even though she's clearly experiencing major depression, PTSD, etc.  But I think Spike's "taking it" is very much a part of who he is, not a new construct for season 6; it just gets to a very extreme level in season 6 -- a "hits rock bottom" level.  And his own warped perception that the way she abuses him is acceptable is one of the main things that convinces me he needed to get a soul (had a hard time accepting the soul was necessary after the first viewing). Like, part of the whole moral compass thing is not just about understanding the implications of his behavior, but of the behavior of others towards him.

I have a lot of issues with the attempted rape, and with the magic=drugs stuff, too, although these two topics are certainly worthy of debate, and very interesting debate at that.  As I said, season 6 is unquestionably flawed, and I get why people have problems with it.  And bdegrande, I didn't mean to suggest you couldn't handle a trip to the dark side! Spike and season 6 conversation just get me all riled up!

[beth]

This is the essay:

http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/essays/DomesticAbuse.html

[BananaBuffy]

Just logged in and was surprised to find how much of a debate had erupted in my welcome forum. To be honest, this pleases me a great deal because it's an interesting one and a great welcome, I must add.

There was a previous comment on how Hell's Bells was the worst offender when it comes to flawed character portrayal but to be completely honest, I don't agree with that. I think that Xander (as I presume that's who you are talking about) behaved within Xander's character. I could go into a whole rant about this due to the fact that I wrote a post about it, getting right into Xander's head, on a site called Buffy-Boards but I don't think I'll bore you with that here. Although, I hope it wasn't boring for the people who did read it.

As for Spike, I agree with Beth. The way he took the abuse and let it go on for so long was within the lines of his character. And right now I'm sitting here trying to figure out a way to explain this to you.

I hate seeing Spike treated the way he was by Buffy, and as stated, it's obvious why he let it go on for so long to some extent. He loved Buffy, just like he loved Cecily and Drusilla before her. I think that Spike is hopeless in the face of love. Ever since his human days he has been a huge romantic but really, when it comes to love he has no idea what he's doing. He falls too hard and too fast and throughout the whole thing he doesn't have a great hold on the reigns.

Throughout the relationship with Buffy, Spike didn’t want to be treated that way and if it was anyone else, he probably would have given up a long time ago. But this is Buffy, this is the woman he loves—for reasons stated in Season Seven. I think Spike might have been clinging to a sliver of hope that Buffy might soon realize what she had right in front of her now that she was responding in a physical way. I don’t have strong evidence to support this statement but some things that spring time mind are the scene in Seeing Red (we all know the one, before the attempted rape) and the scene in Wrecked when they’re walking to find Dawn.

SPIKE - No, it’s your calling. Gave me a run for my money, Slayer. Now, I admit it, you’ve had me by the short hairs. But I got my rocks back, you felt something last night.
BUFFY – Not love.
SPIKE – Not yet. But I’m in your system now. You’re going to crave me, like I crave blood.

Now, as I said…I know this isn’t strong evidence but I believe this is when Spike started clinging onto his sliver of hope. He hoped like hell and presented it in a very cocky manner with his ‘not yet’. And as for the scene in Seeing Red, you can still see him clinging, attempting to convince himself that she loved him or could love him. It’s all part of Spike’s character, I believe that.

[MikeFromTheUK]

On Season 6, I'm going to have to comment here. I disliked it for plenty of reasons

It turned into the Buffy and Spike show; the problem with Spike is that he's a very good character and if the writers weren't careful, he warped the episodes like he was channeling Fonzie. His incredibly unhealthy relationship with Buffy (foreshadowing Twilight?) was interesting in a trainwreck sort of way, but the whole thing felt a little railroaded. Especially the conclusion, where Joss suddenly remembers that Spike doesn't have a soul and feels the need to hammer that home to the audience. Whinging abused Spike was just a little bit weird, considering that he was threatening The Judge when he was in a wheelchair in S2.

In fact, I thought that the whole story felt a little railroaded. By this, I mean that it felt like the story was plot-driven, not character-driven. Events happen just because the writers need them to happen to get from Point A to Point B in the plot and not because it's what the characters would have naturally done. Justification was given afterwards for some of the worse offences, but the writing staff on Buffy have shown that they're competent enough to damn well set things up realistically.

The other big complaint I have is all the wasted opportunities: Tara's death scene was not climactic enough to justify getting rid of a nice character; the death scene itself was lazily shot (anyone who takes a brief look can see that the bullet can't go through the window at an angle to hit Tara, given Warren's height and the distance to the house and the bullet would have to make a sharp turn to avoid hitting Willow!). The whole magic = drugs metaphor felt like something from a public service announcement and it would've been easy to change it into a Willow issue (she uses power to circumvent having to make an effort) rather than a hamfisted Aesop. "Willow goes bad" could've been handled much better.

Not terrible television, but it's nowhere near the previously established standard, IMO.

[beth]

@MikeFromTheUK
I agree 100% that the neon sign reminders at the end of season 6 that Spike is EVIL so he needs a SOUL were a problem.  From what I've read, I guess this was attributable to the audience having an unanticipated reaction to Spike and Buffy during the season, ranging from "I love Spike, so I hate Buffy for how she's treating him," to "Spike is on a path to redemption and doesn't need a soul" to straight-up Spuffy.  But even if they felt they had to do something about this, the attempted rape was a very questionable choice, and I really struggle with it.  (And no one's even mentioned "the doctor" and the demon eggs yet.  Yikes).  But the highs of the season and its emotional complexity outweigh the problems for me.

@BananaBuffy
Yes. Agree.  In terms of love, I think Spike's development is pretty much arrested at the point he was turned -- he's a romantic, naive, lovesick idealist.  I think his (William's) rejection by Cecily, his failure at love with her, leads him to acquiesce (at least somewhat) to being turned.  And everything he does afterward is in part motivated by his romantic nature and by that rejection.  He becomes compulsive in his need to love and be loved.  Yes, there are many indications of his holding onto the slim hope that Buffy will let him love her, and that she will eventually return that love; but he's going to go where his heart takes him, with or without that hope.  I always think of the scene in Into the Woods, where Riley asks him if he thinks he has a chance with Buffy, and Spike's response is no, but that he has to try anyway. He is powerless to love, or at least he feels that he is. And his romantic compulsion, coupled with his feelings of self-loathing, culminate in accepting Buffy's abuse.  It's not a construct for season 6 -- it's been there from the very first moments we see him School Hard, when the swaggering tough guy takes off his duster and gives it to Dru in a gesture of chivalry, love and protection. Taking off the coat exposes who he really is. And that's before we know what that coat means to him psychologically.

Also, BananaBuffy, I would love to hear your thoughts on Hell's Bells.  I'm sensing that I'll agree with what you have to say.

BTW, is this same conversation happening on more than one thread?