Hellmouth Empire Forums
May 23, 2013, 11:40:08 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Welcome Angie, the new Co-Dictator of the Hellmouth Empire!
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: The Betrayal in Helpless  (Read 554 times)
hellmouth
Administrator
Slayer
*****

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 743



WWW Email
« on: November 04, 2010, 07:51:01 PM »

We are fast approaching the episode Helpless in which the council forces Giles to betray Buffy and leave her trapped with a vicious vampire named Kralik. Was Giles doing the right thing by following the Council's order? Should he have refused? Should Buffy blame Giles or the Council for what happened?
Logged

-bryan

Host of the show...
smartgirl63
Administrator
Slayer
*****

Karma: +6/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 807



Email
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 05:46:02 AM »

I can't believe Giles betrayed Buffy. Every time I watch it, I beg him to do the right thing. I can't believe that Buffy and his relationship recovered from that incident either.
Logged
hellmouth
Administrator
Slayer
*****

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 743



WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 07:57:49 AM »

Do you think that this betrayal was worse than the one in prophecy girl?
Logged

-bryan

Host of the show...
FalconNL
Vampire Bait
*

Karma: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 21



« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »

This is a difficult one, as it's a question of pragmatics vs. ethics.

Let's start by looking at it from the viewpoint of the council, who instituted the ritual. I believe that the ritual increases the survival chance of slayers who pass it, as it will teach them that sometimes brute strength is not enough. However, it does come at the cost of a higher slayer mortality rate. Since the council effectively has an infinite supply of slayers, they are increasing the average slayer quality, meaning that there's a greater chance that any apocalypse will be stopped. Since their goal is saving the earth, it makes strategic sense. Sadly, waging a war (which is exactly what Quentin calls it) often requires sacrificing individuals for the greater good.

The situation for Giles is even less black and white. On one hand he has been trained all his life in the ways of the council. He knows why it's necessary (plus, he's British, so that whole 'for Queen and country' mentality is ingrained pretty deeply). On the other, Buffy is like a daughter to him and he obviously has problems with it, as can be seen by the fact that he goes to Quentin to try to stop the ritual. I think that in the end, he must face what all parents must: at some point you have to stop protecting your child and let them fight their own battles. All you can do is hope you've raised them well enough so they can face it. It is hard to do, but necessary. As such, I don't think he's betraying her, but just doing what must be done. By refusing, he would indicate that he didn't think Buffy was capable of handling such a challenge, while he knows she has faced much worse.

From Buffy's standpoint, it's logical that she's angry, but I think that in the end she also realizes that it isn't Giles' fault. Had it not been Kralik, she would soon have encountered some other baddie on which her strength wouldn't have worked. If she is to blame anyone, it should be the council, as they are the ones that devised the test. This is exactly what happens on the show: Giles is quickly forgiven, while the council is blamed.

As for comparing this to Prophecy girl: If he doesn't send Buffy out, the earth is doomed. He can try to find alternatives (which he does), but if those don't work he has no choice. One life, no matter how much he may love it (though at that point the bond between them is still far less strong than in season 3) does not weigh up against the lives of the entire world. I consider neither situation a betrayal so much as a sad reality of their line of work.
Logged
buffyfan21
Vampire Bait
*

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 23



Email
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 12:49:34 PM »

I remember being so angry at Giles when I first saw this episode; I thought, "how could he betray Buffy this way?" I was just trying to wrap my head around how he could do such a thing; it was pretty unbelievable at the time. I will say though that as much as it makes me mad that he did it, at least he takes a stand and does the right thing in the end. I really like the end of the episode when Travers talks about Giles' "fathers love for the child," and then when Giles goes over to gently clean Buffy's wounds and and she allows him to do so. He is taking care of her in the way any father would care for his child, and it is in this moment that you can truly see Giles' great love for Buffy, not just as a slayer, but as a daughter. Yes, Giles acted wrongly, but I feel that by the end he was successfully able to redeem himself, and it was very touching how Buffy was able to forgive him so quickly. I remember in the beginning I was really worried for their relationship, thinking it would never be the same. But overall I'm glad it mended pretty quickly because seeing them on the outs for long would have just been too sad to watch. Personally, I think it speaks a lot to Buffy and her ability to forgive Giles and move on. I think it would have been wrong not to, as we know that all the scoobies have made mistakes at one point or another, and this is hardly the first time we will see them have a falling out; but that's the great thing about the scoobies - they always find their way back to one another. Smiley
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 12:51:31 PM by buffyfan21 » Logged
FaithLehane
Watcher
****

Karma: +5/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 481


'Arf Arf Psycho'


Email
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 12:53:59 PM »

If we are going to throw 'Prophecy Girl' into the Mix why not
The Betrayal she couldn't get over(It still haunts the Comics)
'Lies My Parents Told Me'
Giles joining forces with Robin Wood to take down Spike
I think in the case of 'Prophecy Girl'
It was a shock to him that his 1st charge....His Girl....His Responsabilty...was Destined to Die and even if he tried there was no chance of Saving her.
I don't see that as anything other than Sparing her pain.
In the case of 'Helpless'
His superiors had the overall say in that situation.....what was he going to do...Quit??Or force their hand
The Council is formidable......One person can't stand up to them....Unless that persons name is Buffy Anne Summers Smiley
He told her when it got down to the cruical point....he gave them both an out....The Cruiciamentum was null and void and Giles was Fired.
I don't like that he let her think she wasn't the one....that was the point I thought maybe he'd actually take it all the way...but he didn't so I can forgive him for that indiscretion.
and Finally back to my 'Lies My Parents Told Me' Thought
I wholeheartedly agree with Buffy's reaction to that betrayal
Why the Frak did he think he had the right to Team up with Principal Wood...to destroy Spike who at this point was Harmless...........the 1st Controlling him does not count as a Problem and I'll tell you why....The 1st was controlling everyone...not just Spike....Giles' defence is crap...and to be honest so is Robin's the Spike he tried to exact revenge on wasn't the Spike that Murdered his mother.
Logged

5x5
buffyfan21
Vampire Bait
*

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 23



Email
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 01:11:09 PM »

Do you think that this betrayal was worse than the one in prophecy girl?

I don't really see this so much as a betrayal. Giles keeping the info from Buffy was wrong, yes, but he was trying to protect her while he searched for a way out of it. And let's not forget that he was even going to put his own life on the line and go in her place before she knocked him out cold. Giles, misguided as he was, was trying to do the right thing. He was shocked when he read that Buffy was destined to die; he didn't want this to happen to his slayer any more than she did.

Buffy's reaction to this news is certainly understandable (and one of the best moments of the series, mind you), but Giles wasn't trying to betray Buffy, if anything he was attempting to keep her safe. This speaks to how much Giles cares for Buffy even this early on in the series. Should he have been straight with her from the get go? Perhaps. But I think he can hardly be faulted for trying to protect her, and you can clearly see that he did have the best of intentions at heart. He even meets with Angel, looking for a way to stop it so that he doesn't have to involve Buffy at all. Besides, how exactly to you break the news to 16-year-old girl that she is destined to die? I don't think this would be easy news to hear at any age, let alone when you are 16 and just starting out in life. I tell you, I really don't envy Giles in this moment, but it certainly does make for riveting television. 
Logged
buffyfan21
Vampire Bait
*

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 23



Email
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 02:44:24 PM »


and Finally back to my 'Lies My Parents Told Me' Thought
I wholeheartedly agree with Buffy's reaction to that betrayal
Why the Frak did he think he had the right to Team up with Principal Wood...to destroy Spike who at this point was Harmless...........the 1st Controlling him does not count as a Problem and I'll tell you why....The 1st was controlling everyone...not just Spike....Giles' defence is crap...and to be honest so is Robin's the Spike he tried to exact revenge on wasn't the Spike that Murdered his mother.


I agree with you here. I don't blame Buffy for her reaction to Giles' betrayal, but at the same time, i mean, can she really be that surprised by it? This isn't, after all, the first time Giles has gone behind Buffy's back and attempted to off one of her boyfriends. Although, in Giles' defense, he had more than a good enough reason with Angel...And I don't like that Giles teamed up with Wood to make it happen knowing full well that this was nothing more than a personal vendetta for Wood. This to me is beneath Giles. It's not that I dislike Wood as a character (I know a lot of fans don't but overall I thought he was okay), it's just that I dislike his partnership with Giles here. And Giles keeping Buffy distracted in the cemetery so that Wood can "attend to business;" a very low place for Giles to be, in my opinion. You might even say that Giles exploited Wood's hatred of Spike and used it for his own gain. He may have pretended to be ignorant of Wood's reasons for signing on, but deep down I think he knew the truth. What's worse is how he excuses his actions to Buffy. It's sad to see him here, and my heart broke when Buffy shut the door in his face, but at the same time, it can be understood. I wouldn't say that Buffy never got over it, though; even toward the end of the season you can see they are getting back to trusting one another again; it's gradual, but it's there. And even though they continue to their problems in season 8, they have also had their moments as well; though few and far between. I think Buffy and Giles have such a special relationship that deep down they will always forgive one another.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 02:49:57 PM by buffyfan21 » Logged
hellmouth
Administrator
Slayer
*****

Karma: +2/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 743



WWW Email
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 03:13:14 PM »




He may have pretended to be ignorant of Wood's reasons for signing on, but deep down I think he knew the truth.

My guess is that Giles new exactly why would hated Spike, I think it must have been in the Watcher's diaries somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if Giles new who Wood's mom was and that Spike killed her.

I think that this situation is much more reminiscent of Ripper than Giles. I think Ripper is capable of some things that we have a hard time accepting because we are so used to 'Giles'.
Logged

-bryan

Host of the show...
bdegrande
Scooby
***

Karma: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 145


Email
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 10:56:22 PM »

I have NEVER been able to understand Giles being willing to do what he did in Helpless, I can understand Giles being willing to kill Ben, or to try to help Robin Wood kill Spike, far more easily than being willing to put Buffy's life at risk unnecessarily, and I do think that this is worse than Prophecy Girl, as he had a much more direct hand in the betrayal.
Logged
beth
Scooby
***

Karma: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 147


« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 09:19:10 PM »

In Prophecy Girl, I think Giles believes that Buffy's death is pre-destined, and that she will die at the Master's hand no matter what he does, and whether or not he tells her about it. His sin is one of omission, but he does nothing which affirmatively causes Buffy harm.

I think that Giles' behavior in Helpless is reprehensible -- he lies to Buffy, betrays her trust, strips her of the power that is rightfully hers, and places her and others in terrible danger.  He accedes to the wishes of the Watchers' Council, who traditionally and consistently treat Slayers as things, weapons, possessions to be manipulated and not treated as human beings.  But Giles' behavior can be explained and understood and, eventually, forgiven.  Giles' destiny is to be a Watcher, and once he accepted that destiny, he accepted the mandates of the Watchers' Council.  I think he finds questioning the authority that has shaped his life to be very difficult, and tries to convince himself that his actions are in Buffy's best interest, although they are emotionally repugnant to him.  But ultimately, Giles regrets his actions, defies the Council, and, in doing so, breaks from them.  Giles learns a lesson that causes him to become a better man...

Or does he?  I thought he did, which makes his behavior in Lies My Parents Told Me the worst and most disappointing of all.  Because Giles should know better at this point.  I think what he does in Lies is very difficult to understand or forgive.  I know there's a lot of debate about whether his betrayal of Buffy in Lies is consistent with Giles' character and story arc.  Curious what others think.
Logged
FaithLehane
Watcher
****

Karma: +5/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 481


'Arf Arf Psycho'


Email
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 03:24:56 AM »

@Beth

After everything we see Giles do
I think it's part of him.....the worst part....the part that made him leave the Dark magics and Ripper Persona behind.
He let everyone believe he was this Goody 2 shoes.....and got all sanctimonious when Faith & Willow killed a human...I can't understand how he justified Killing Ben....and the worst part not telling anyone he did it.

I love Giles....I'll forgive him for just about anything...except him playing up this I'm better than you stuff...when we know damn well he's willing to go further in some situations than the rest of the Scoobies.
Logged

5x5
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!