Angel: Guilty or Not Guilty?

[FaithLehane]

Spell No Spell Demon No Demon

We've learnt from Joss that Humans are just as capable as the bad guys when it comes to this kind of stuff.

I've come across people that don't consider what Xander did as anything because of this he was under a spell thing....for one he was posessed and two he remembered what he did and NEVER apologised.(Reading that back It sounds alittle Xander hate-y,He's actually my second fav scoobie behind Willow).
Spike actually sought out his soul ....to make up for not just the AR but for most of the horrible things he did to Buffy&Co.(Though Buffy more so).

I don't completely forgive both Boys but I can see past their indiscretions and still love the men they became.

@Blasterboy

I actually think Spike did everything to snap Buffy out of her funk/Depression...though there were some instances where he was very much trying to bring her down to his level.

[beth]

Re: how Spike knew death was a certainty and could have avoided it -- Buffy urges him to leave with her, which I think suggests he could have done so, and he replies that he's "got to" sacrifice himself and "wants to" see how it ends.  I think this shows that he's choosing death, not simply succumbing to it.

Re: Spike helping Buffy in season 6, and not simply being attracted to her darkness -- I think we see this from the moment they first have contact in season 6, when he empathizes with her about crawling out of her grave and bandages her hands.  One of the first things he tells her is that he'll take care of her, and he keeps offering to do so -- the every night I save you speech, and also, before she confesses to him about having been in heaven, he tells her something about wanting to help her if she's in pain.  Of course, he's the one who saves her from basically killing herself in OMWF.  And he really wants positive, emotional intimacy with her -- my heart always kinda breaks when, after the first time they have sex, she mocks him with that think-we-were gonna-read-the-papers-and-play-footsie line, since that's clearly what he does want. These are just some examples, but I think this continues until the point where he becomes hopeless about her responding to him when he tries to connect with her in  a positive way. But no question, his subsequent behavior in isolating her and playing on her fears is very, very bad; I just think it happens because that's the soulless behavior he naturally reverted to when being loving and kind didn't work.

Re: the AR and Spike's punishment in season 7 -- I think a big reason Spike underwent this torture was to get viewers to a place where they could feel like he had paid for the AR.  But it doesn't really work, I agree.  The AR is fraught with problems. I absolutely understand what you're saying about this.  Very, very difficult to put people together in a loving relationship after that happened. 

[BlasterBoy]

Sorry for not responding in awhile.

Re: how Spike knew death was a certainty and could have avoided it -- Buffy urges him to leave with her, which I think suggests he could have done so, and he replies that he's "got to" sacrifice himself and "wants to" see how it ends.  I think this shows that he's choosing death, not simply succumbing to it.

But could he have actually left? I highly doubt it. He was being burnt from the inside out. You can't just take off the necklace and walk away. He didn't really have a choice in the matter once the effects of the amulet began to show. With that said, I don't think he succumbed to his death. It is certainly admirable that he accepts his fate. I mean, even the imagery of the light from inside his soul being what conquers evil is great, but I think what he did is very much the same as what Andrew and Anya did. They both accepted that they were going to die and fought anyways. And that's what Spike did, he fought, he found out he was going to die, and he accepted that. And for that, he is a hero. But no more than the others there. I don't like that his death was deemed a sacrifice and the most selfless thing ever. Because, in reality, he had no choice. It's just what he did with the situation he was handed that makes it a significant moment.

Re: Spike helping Buffy in season 6, and not simply being attracted to her darkness -- I think we see this from the moment they first have contact in season 6, when he empathizes with her about crawling out of her grave and bandages her hands.  One of the first things he tells her is that he'll take care of her, and he keeps offering to do so -- the every night I save you speech, and also, before she confesses to him about having been in heaven, he tells her something about wanting to help her if she's in pain.  Of course, he's the one who saves her from basically killing herself in OMWF.  And he really wants positive, emotional intimacy with her -- my heart always kinda breaks when, after the first time they have sex, she mocks him with that think-we-were gonna-read-the-papers-and-play-footsie line, since that's clearly what he does want. These are just some examples, but I think this continues until the point where he becomes hopeless about her responding to him when he tries to connect with her in  a positive way. But no question, his subsequent behavior in isolating her and playing on her fears is very, very bad; I just think it happens because that's the soulless behavior he naturally reverted to when being loving and kind didn't work.

I agree on the first part. He was definitely helping her pre-OMWF, I just think it's after that where it becomes about him, in his mind. I don't think he sees his affair with Buffy as a way of helping her. It was just "love", or what he thought love was, and he finally got what HE had always wanted. I don't think he saw how destructive it was and he didn't think he was helping her realize her dark side and overcome it or anything like that. He just wanted to be with her, to bring her into the darkness with him.

Re: the AR and Spike's punishment in season 7 -- I think a big reason Spike underwent this torture was to get viewers to a place where they could feel like he had paid for the AR.  But it doesn't really work, I agree.  The AR is fraught with problems. I absolutely understand what you're saying about this.  Very, very difficult to put people together in a loving relationship after that happened. 

Hmm, I never thought about the torture scenes in that way. But for me, personally, it didn't bring me to a place where I could forgive him. I guess we can agree on that one!

Spell No Spell Demon No Demon

We've learnt from Joss that Humans are just as capable as the bad guys when it comes to this kind of stuff.

True. What I'm saying is that Xander in "The Pack" seemed to be under a greater influence that Spike was under. Xander was under a spell, and yes, it certainly reflects a very true part of who he is, but Spike was under no spell when he attempted to rape Buffy. It was all him, which makes it worse, IMO. Xander's actions in "The Pack" were part of he was, but Spike's AR was all him, not just a part of him.

[beth]

@BlasterBoy

Re:  Spike's sacrifice -- Still think Spike could have left, and that we're meant to think so, for the reasons discussed above. Also, I think the nature of his struggle for redemption preceding his death vastly distinguishes him from Andrew and Anya, and his death has a different resonance for that reason alone.  The fact that it's the culmination of a struggle for redemption gives it it's meaning. No such redemptive journey for Anya or Andrew.

Re:  Spike helping Buffy -- Agree completely that things take a turn after OMWF. Agree that he doesn't view their affair as a means of helping her, and that he doesn't see its destructive effects. Agree that he had no awareness of the positive benefits of Buffy exploring her dark side.  But I still think he only resorts to the "be with me in the dark" stuff after she refuses to bring their relationship into the light.

Re: Forgiving Spike -- It's not so much a process of forgiving for me. It's just the fact that I never stopped loving him.  And even the AR, though incredibly upsetting and distressing for me, didn't change that.  Which makes me feel very uncomfortable.  Which is one of the reasons I hate the AR, and think it was an error.

[BlasterBoy]

@BlasterBoy

Re:  Spike's sacrifice -- Still think Spike could have left, and that we're meant to think so, for the reasons discussed above. Also, I think the nature of his struggle for redemption preceding his death vastly distinguishes him from Andrew and Anya, and his death has a different resonance for that reason alone.  The fact that it's the culmination of a struggle for redemption gives it it's meaning. No such redemptive journey for Anya or Andrew.

I just don't see how he could have left. He chooses to embrace his position and not beg for his life or try to get away, but how could he have? The necklace was ripping him apart from the inside and it had the power to destroy all of Sunnydale. It's out of control, destroying everything. You can't just take that out. Also, Anya had a redemptive journey, it was just underplayed (ever since "Selfless"). Same with Andrew ("Storyteller"). Although I love Spike and his journey, I don't see how his redemption is such a great "struggle" when he gets over it pretty easily. Like I said, after the first seven episodes or so, he seems okay. He fights on the side of good, but so does Andrew and Anya. He's willing to give up his life, but so do others.

Re:  Spike helping Buffy -- Agree completely that things take a turn after OMWF. Agree that he doesn't view their affair as a means of helping her, and that he doesn't see its destructive effects. Agree that he had no awareness of the positive benefits of Buffy exploring her dark side.  But I still think he only resorts to the "be with me in the dark" stuff after she refuses to bring their relationship into the light.

I think I pretty much agree with everything you said here.

Re: Forgiving Spike -- It's not so much a process of forgiving for me. It's just the fact that I never stopped loving him.  And even the AR, though incredibly upsetting and distressing for me, didn't change that.  Which makes me feel very uncomfortable.  Which is one of the reasons I hate the AR, and think it was an error.

Yeah, I can see that. I still have trouble forgiving characters that disgust me so much. I have the same issue with Willow, who effectively raped Tara in "All the Way" and then when Tara (rightfully!) breaks up with her, she complains about it in "Smashed" and says it was for no good reason. I know, I know, it's part of her arc and we're supposed to recognize this as a flaw but it stops me from being happy for them in "Entropy" and the beginning of "Seeing Red" because Willow never really made any effort to fix the real issues. That's kind of what I feel with Spike. He doesn't ever fix things with Buffy, it just kind of happens. Buffy feels bad for him, and things slowly get better, but it's not really because Spike did anything or changed anything. He got his soul, but you can still be a monster with a soul (and a man without a soul). And yet Buffy seems to forgive him over the first half of the season simply because he has a soul but that really doesn't change anything in my mind.

[beth]

@BlasterBoy

So, the whole Spike noble sacrifice thing we'll never resolve. That's OK, though.  Still happy to discuss it. As for Buffy forgiving him -- again, many characters do horrible things that get glossed over or forgotten pretty quickly, whereas, for me, Spike is treated like the worst offender.  Not that his offenses aren't bad.  But also, that the AR, especially given the context of their relationship, becomes like the main big thing he needs forgiveness for is sort of odd.  As for why she forgives him -- the soul-getting in itself is a pretty big reason, more so than the soul-having.  But maybe, also, like Giles says about forgiveness in IOHEFY -- not given because it's deserved, but because it's needed.

Agree about Willow.  She almost destroyed the world, killed Warren, etc., and she seems to be forgiven because she feels bad and does a stint in witch rehab.  Not an enormous amount of atoning there. I love Willow very much, and I understand their forgiveness of her, but there is a real double standard.  As for her treatment of Tara -- during my first viewing, the instant Tara gave that speech about rebuilding trust, and then said, can we just skip all that -- I said uh oh.  I just felt someone was going to get punished because Willow hadn't been made to do the work necessary to change.

[FaithLehane]

It's really Interesting that this thread started out as a "Is Angel guilty for Angelus' atrocities" and has now morphed into a discussion about everyones misteps in the series.