Angel: Guilty or Not Guilty?

[Princessmela]

Can I ask what your issue with Spike in season 7 of Buffy is?

[beth]

He sees his abusive relationship with Buffy where Buffy obviously does not love Spike but mistakes it as Buffy loving Spike. He thinks that they are in love. He thinks what he is doing is an act of love, so I think it kind of shows how mistaken he is about love. He kind of mistakes love with wild sex.

 As for the slayer thing, I agree that it's more than thrill-seeking. But I also don't think it has anything to do with some great love for him. He's initially attracted to Buffy because she is a symbol of power, the slayer.



@FaithLehane: I agree. The root of all his problems are with his mother. Those flashbacks were really, really great.

See, I just don't think he believes Buffy loves him.  That's part of what draws him to her.  He needs to keep playing out the same scenario of loving someone who either doesn't love him, or doesn't love him enough, to try and finally overcome his feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy with respect to women. I think it torments him that she doesn't love him, and that's part of what makes him snap. But I believe he actually loves her, even if, as I mentioned, his love can be pretty warped at times.

I don't think his women issues are all about mom, but certainly, his relationship with her is a contributing factor. 

I agree that the slayer obsession is very much about power -- power over women, whom he sees as having power over him, and the power to overcome "good," including the vestiges of good in himself.

[BlasterBoy]

Ha, I just realized we are talking so much about Spike in the Angel forum....oops!

@Princessmela: my problems aren't necessarily with his character arc but more with the fact that it takes up too much time for my liking. One of the major criticisms of season 7 is that it severely under uses the core characters and I agree with that, thinking that Spike is one of the main issues. The other (bigger) reason for that is of course the huge influx of new characters (the potentials, Wood, Andrew, The First, Caleb, etc.). I also don't think Spike had to face the consequences of the AR at all. He was depressed about his soul for all of about ten episodes and then got over it, whereas Angel took almost one hundred years to do. Plus, I despise that he continued to wear the leather jacket that he got off of Nikki Wood. I know it may be a minor issue but it irks me to no end. I side with Spike on the whole Spike/Wood issue, obviously, but his jacket was rude and just completely inconsiderate. Lastly, I feel like his sacrifice, while moving, is not as effective because he doesn't really have a choice in the matter. It just happens. He takes the amulet partly because he's jealous (or at least that's what 'Chosen' leads us to believe...) and he has no idea what's going to happen. He has no idea that this is a sacrifice, that he is going to die. It just happens, and unfortunately, it feels a bit cheap for me.

Overall, though, season 7 did a good job with Spike. There were some brilliant, brilliant moments. The church scene in "Beneath You" is one of the best scenes in the entire series. "Sleeper" does a great job with his character, and "Never Leave Me" has a few great scenes for him, as well. "Lies My Parents Told Me" gives some great insight into Spike with the flashbacks and his confrontation with Wood. And although his sacrifice in "Chosen" doesn't really feel earned for me, the actual scene itself is very well done and powerful. I think it's a good season with Spike, I was just hoping it would be a bit stronger and consistent.

He sees his abusive relationship with Buffy where Buffy obviously does not love Spike but mistakes it as Buffy loving Spike. He thinks that they are in love. He thinks what he is doing is an act of love, so I think it kind of shows how mistaken he is about love. He kind of mistakes love with wild sex.

 As for the slayer thing, I agree that it's more than thrill-seeking. But I also don't think it has anything to do with some great love for him. He's initially attracted to Buffy because she is a symbol of power, the slayer.



@FaithLehane: I agree. The root of all his problems are with his mother. Those flashbacks were really, really great.

See, I just don't think he believes Buffy loves him.  That's part of what draws him to her.  He needs to keep playing out the same scenario of loving someone who either doesn't love him, or doesn't love him enough, to try and finally overcome his feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy with respect to women. I think it torments him that she doesn't love him, and that's part of what makes him snap. But I believe he actually loves her, even if, as I mentioned, his love can be pretty warped at times.

I don't think his women issues are all about mom, but certainly, his relationship with her is a contributing factor. 

I agree that the slayer obsession is very much about power -- power over women, whom he sees as having power over him, and the power to overcome "good," including the vestiges of good in himself.

Hmm, interesting. I've never thought about it in that way. I'm just wondering why you think that? I get that in "The Gift" and early season 6, but after about, I dunno, "After Life" or maybe "Smashed", I think Spike truly believes that he is in a grand relationship that is great, wild, passionate love when it's really all about self-loathing for Buffy. When Buffy breaks it off in "As You Were", he seems genuinely confused and annoyed by Buffy. He thinks there's nothing wrong with their relationship and he wants it to be back (as we see in "Normal Again"). In "Seeing Red" when Buffy says that he knows why she couldn't have let Xander kill him, Spike responds with, "Because you love me".

Completely agree on everything else.

[Princessmela]

With all do respect, Buffy told him to get out he had already done enough in chosen but Spike continued to stay to make sure it was finnished.  Maybe he didnt know he was going to die going into battle but it is our choices that determine who we are. I think it was not jealousy that made him wear the amulet I think it was to keep Buffy from wearing it.  

I don't think Spike ever stopped suffering.  I think that the story moved beyond him and that they didn't have time to fully deal with him but I think Spike by nature is more of a doer than a sulker like Angel.  The world was ending he could just cry himself to sleep every night or he could fight, I'm glad he chose to fight.

So I am going to assume that you don't think that Angel suffered enough for the Murder of Jenny Calendar?  I think they made a much bigger deal of Spike AR than of Angel murdering Jenny.

As for Spike and Buffy I look at Spike being the girl in that relationship and Buffy being the guy. Okay here us what I mean,  I know many girls who are with guys who are mean to them who insult them,  and who consistently tell them that there is nothing there and that they aren't in love with them in hopes that it will turn into something else.  Spike truly felt that he could force Buffy to love him. The Irony was when Spike stopped forcing was when she fell in love.  Yes, I believe that she meant the I love you in Chosen. I also think she may have loved him in season 6, but was either too stubborn or embarrassed to admit it.

As for Beneath You I agree the scene in the church is one if the best in the entire series and breaks my heart every time I see it.

[smartgirl63]

Haven't you all heard that hit song, "Isn't it Byronic"?

It's the good advice that Wesley just can't take
Well, who would have thought or figured?

Mr. Rogue demon hunter was afraid to fight
He packed his suitcase and wished Sunnydale goodbye
He waited his whole damn life just to take that ride
And as she died in his arms,
He thought, "Well, isn't this nice."
Isn't it Byronic, don't you think?
A little too Byronic, yeah, I really do think

It's like rai-y-ain... on your wedding day....

[FaithLehane]

See, I just don't think he believes Buffy loves him.  That's part of what draws him to her.  He needs to keep playing out the same scenario of loving someone who either doesn't love him, or doesn't love him enough, to try and finally overcome his feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy with respect to women. I think it torments him that she doesn't love him, and that's part of what makes him snap. But I believe he actually loves her, even if, as I mentioned, his love can be pretty warped at times.
I don't think his women issues are all about mom, but certainly, his relationship with her is a contributing factor. 
I agree that the slayer obsession is very much about power -- power over women, whom he sees as having power over him, and the power to overcome "good," including the vestiges of good in himself.
[/quote]
I agree.
Being rejected by his mother(after she was turned)being rejected by Cecily when he was at his most vunerable.....and then having Buffy play out her Daddy(& own inadequacy) issues on him
Speaking of being to good for someone I think Spike was too Good for Buffy.
Anywho my point is... their low selfesteem  issues feed off each other.
Which is why their "Relationship" was sooooo destructive & Unhealthy.
(For Both of them)

[beth]

Hmm, interesting. I've never thought about it in that way. I'm just wondering why you think that? I get that in "The Gift" and early season 6, but after about, I dunno, "After Life" or maybe "Smashed", I think Spike truly believes that he is in a grand relationship that is great, wild, passionate love when it's really all about self-loathing for Buffy. When Buffy breaks it off in "As You Were", he seems genuinely confused and annoyed by Buffy. He thinks there's nothing wrong with their relationship and he wants it to be back (as we see in "Normal Again"). In "Seeing Red" when Buffy says that he knows why she couldn't have let Xander kill him, Spike responds with, "Because you love me".

I think Fool for Love illustrates this pattern of Spike's with women in a pretty explicit way.
 
The thing is, because Spike's and Buffy's relationship is so complex and layered, it can't really be reduced to one thing. They engage in a lot of self-destructive and mutually destructive behavior that's part of a process of both of them maturing and evolving. Sure, it's partly about self-loathing for Buffy, but it's also about her need to explore her dark side instead of repressing it; about fighting her way out of darkness; about maturing romantically in the sense of  not idealizing her romantic partner, as she did with Angel; about broadening her sexual horizons; and about her actual physical and emotional attraction to and connection with Spike himself. For Spike, I think it's also about self-loathing, in terms of how he believes he should be treated and allows himself to be treated; but it's also about working through and breaking the pattern of loving someone who looks down on him, due to his own feelings of inadequacy; about attraction to good rather than evil; about fighting his own way out of darkness; and of course, his romantic and sexual attraction to Buffy herself. I think they've had an underlying attraction since the very beginning -- in School Hard, the first time he sees her,he checks her out in a very sexual way; and she proposes hand to hand combat rather than using weapons, and this push/pull between them is evident in almost every interaction they have after that. Buffy spends a lot of time trying to convince herself that Spike doesn't love her, and that she has no feelings for him; and Spike spends a lot of time trying to convince himself that she loves him and that their relationship is good.  Dead Things is really fascinating in how it lays out this whole dynamic between them.

With all do respect, Buffy told him to get out he had already done enough in chosen but Spike continued to stay to make sure it was finnished.  Maybe he didnt know he was going to die going into battle but it is our choices that determine who we are.

I don't think Spike ever stopped suffering.  

So I am going to assume that you don't think that Angel suffered enough for the Murder of Jenny Calendar?  I think they made a much bigger deal of Spike AR than of Angel murdering Jenny.

As for Spike and Buffy I look at Spike being the girl in that relationship and Buffy being the guy. Okay here us what I mean,  I know many girls who are with guys who are mean to them who insult them,  and who consistently tell them that there is nothing there and that they aren't in love with them in hopes that it will turn into something else.  Spike truly felt that he could force Buffy to love him. The Irony was when Spike stopped forcing was when she fell in love.  Yes, I believe that she meant the I love you in Chosen. I also think she may have loved him in season 6, but was either too stubborn or embarrassed to admit it.

Agree that Spike's suffering doesn't end, and boy, do they make him pay in season 7.  Yes, the AR is treated as worse than murder, not only in terms of Angel, but with Anya.  Spike is punished incessantly, but Anya's thousands of years of murder, torture, etc. -- no big deal, until she reverts to demon-hood.

There is an excellent essay about the gender role reversal you mention on the Tabula Rasa website.

I agree that Buffy has (unacknowledged) feelings of love for Spike in season 6, that began as attraction way back when, and turned to reliance and respect and even friendship toward the end of season 5.  He's the only one she can turn to in season 6, and though the relationship takes a twisted turn, it ultimately saves both of them. As for the I love you moment in Chosen -- I go back and forth on this.

And okay, okay.  Mock me about "Byronic."  But I'm right!

[beth]

Ditto.

[bdegrande]

I agree, I have said that Spike was too good for Buffy for a long time (even soulless Spike, which I think is an indication of how badly the writers botched things).

And I knew what Byronic meant, but it's sort of a random thing, my mother was an English teacher.

[BlasterBoy]

With all do respect, Buffy told him to get out he had already done enough in chosen but Spike continued to stay to make sure it was finnished.  Maybe he didnt know he was going to die going into battle but it is our choices that determine who we are. I think it was not jealousy that made him wear the amulet I think it was to keep Buffy from wearing it.  

I don't think Spike ever stopped suffering.  I think that the story moved beyond him and that they didn't have time to fully deal with him but I think Spike by nature is more of a doer than a sulker like Angel.  The world was ending he could just cry himself to sleep every night or he could fight, I'm glad he chose to fight.

So I am going to assume that you don't think that Angel suffered enough for the Murder of Jenny Calendar?  I think they made a much bigger deal of Spike AR than of Angel murdering Jenny.

As for Spike and Buffy I look at Spike being the girl in that relationship and Buffy being the guy. Okay here us what I mean,  I know many girls who are with guys who are mean to them who insult them,  and who consistently tell them that there is nothing there and that they aren't in love with them in hopes that it will turn into something else.  Spike truly felt that he could force Buffy to love him. The Irony was when Spike stopped forcing was when she fell in love.  Yes, I believe that she meant the I love you in Chosen. I also think she may have loved him in season 6, but was either too stubborn or embarrassed to admit it.

As for Beneath You I agree the scene in the church is one if the best in the entire series and breaks my heart every time I see it.

I agree that Spike was heroic for just going into battle and facing these odds, knowing that he's probably going to die. My only point was that he didn't know he was definitely going to die, so in "Chosen", he's just as heroic as Anya or Xander.

He may never have stopped suffering, but Spike getting a soul was a much easier process than it was for Angel. Angel lived on the streets for a hundred years, eating rats because he believed he deserved to suffer. And it's true that Spike was different from Angel because Spike had someone to support him during all this, but it still seems pretty cheap and way too easy, for me. Even though Spike has Buffy to support him, it's Angel being completely lost for 100 years vs. Spike being completely lost for about six months. I don't think it's fair to say that Spike is more of a doer than Angel because it implies that Angel would rather mope than fight to save the world. In his series, his whole character is about fighting despite knowing that he can never win and knowing that there's this evil inside of him and all humans. So I think he looks past it through his series. But Spike never has a chance to get this knowledge and deal with his evil. The writers hinted at it in "Get It Done" where he found that to become a person he had to embrace his dark side but not let it control him, but it felt really rushed and abrupt, especially when we can compare it to Angel's journey, who had a whole eight years to figure this stuff out.

I think Angel suffered enough for Jenny's death. It may not have been mentioned much, but I'm okay with it for two reasons: 1.) He was never personally close with Jenny. I know it sounds bad but the fact that he wasn't really her friend makes it less painful when you realize that you've killed them. Spike, on the other hand, is enamored by Buffy and has been having sex with her for a year, he obviously cares a lot about her, especially once he's re-souled. The fact that Spike's victim was his romantic partner should automatically make it more painful for Spike, as opposed to Angel, who killed his girlfriend's mentor's girlfriend. Since Angel was so unconnected from Jenny, Jenny just becomes one of the many lives he's ruined. It's why she showed up in his mind in "Amends" along with a bunch of no-names. That's what they are to him: no-names who he has destroyed. He doesn't have a personal attachment to that life, just like the gypsy woman, but he still has to deal with the fact that he has murdered people and ruined their lives, something he pays for a lot. And, also, the more important one, IMO: 2.) Angel pays for the murder of Jenny throughout both series quite a bit. After that, none of the Scoobies ever trust him again. It's true, Xander always hated him due to his jealousy, but this is the final straw. He despises Angel in season 3 because of this and Giles will never look at him the same way again. It's also a visual representation in Cordy's mind of what Angel can really do, which is important knowledge for her once she joins Angel Investigations. And the Scoobies will always be separated from Angel because of this. It's why they lose contact over the years in Angel, and it's why they all turn their backs on him in season 5 of Angel. They realize that there is this monster inside of him and it destroys all of their (either existing or possible) relationships with him.

About the Spike/Buffy thing, great points, I never thought about it with the reversed gender roles but I like it. I agree with all of that besides the Buffy being in love with Spike in season 6 thing (in season 7, definitely).

And yes, that scene in "Beneath You"...just wow.

Speaking of being to good for someone I think Spike was too Good for Buffy.

Well, to be fair, Spike totally egged Buffy on and played on her inadequacies. He wasn't an innocent victim Buffy used in season 6. He reaffirms Buffy's self-doubt by telling her that she came back wrong in "Smashed". In "Dead Things", he was perfectly happy with the beating it seemed. She hits him and he says, "Put it all on me". Both of them were pretty guilty and full of issues, as you say. I don't think Spike was too good for Buffy. I just think they were both seriously messed up during that time.

I think Fool for Love illustrates this pattern of Spike's with women in a pretty explicit way.

I'd agree with that in season 5 (in "Fool For Love"). But I think that seriously changes in season 6 when Buffy gives Spike his wish to be romantically involved her and he mistakes it as love. He thinks he's found the person that is as dark and twisted as he is, that he can have a great, messy love with. But in the end, it turns out that his fear of being worthless come true again (in "As You Were") and he needs to convince himself that he isn't worthless by convincing himself that Buffy loves him in "Seeing Red".
 

The thing is, because Spike's and Buffy's relationship is so complex and layered, it can't really be reduced to one thing. They engage in a lot of self-destructive and mutually destructive behavior that's part of a process of both of them maturing and evolving. Sure, it's partly about self-loathing for Buffy, but it's also about her need to explore her dark side instead of repressing it; about fighting her way out of darkness; about maturing romantically in the sense of  not idealizing her romantic partner, as she did with Angel; about broadening her sexual horizons; and about her actual physical and emotional attraction to and connection with Spike himself.

I agree with all of this SO much. I simplified it simply because I didn't want to get into all of these issues in my post, but I definitely agree with all of that.

For Spike, I think it's also about self-loathing, in terms of how he believes he should be treated and allows himself to be treated; but it's also about working through and breaking the pattern of loving someone who looks down on him, due to his own feelings of inadequacy; about attraction to good rather than evil; about fighting his own way out of darkness; and of course, his romantic and sexual attraction to Buffy herself.

I'd agree with all of this except for "about attraction to good rather than evil". In season 6, at least, I think he is incredibly attracted to how sick and dark Buffy has become. It's one of the reasons he loves slayers (among many, many others): their inherent darkness and the fact that, in the end, they are killers, just like him. In season 7, yes, I think he sees Buffy as a symbol of good that he works so hard to become. But in season 6, I think it's really the evil in Buffy as opposed to the good that turns him on.

I think they've had an underlying attraction since the very beginning -- in School Hard, the first time he sees her,he checks her out in a very sexual way; and she proposes hand to hand combat rather than using weapons, and this push/pull between them is evident in almost every interaction they have after that. Buffy spends a lot of time trying to convince herself that Spike doesn't love her, and that she has no feelings for him; and Spike spends a lot of time trying to convince himself that she loves him and that their relationship is good.  Dead Things is really fascinating in how it lays out this whole dynamic between them.

Couldn't agree more here.

Agree that Spike's suffering doesn't end, and boy, do they make him pay in season 7.  Yes, the AR is treated as worse than murder, not only in terms of Angel, but with Anya.  Spike is punished incessantly, but Anya's thousands of years of murder, torture, etc. -- no big deal, until she reverts to demon-hood.

Well Anya suffers in season 7. "Selfless" being the obvious example. And then ultimately she pays for it with her life in "Chosen". But I agree that in seasons 4-6, Anya's demon past was strangely overlooked.

How is the AR treated as worse than murder in terms of what Angel did? How exactly does he pay? Because I've always been very put-off by the fact that Spike almost rapes Buffy in season 6 and then at the end of season 7, she trusts him unconditionally. I know there's tons of development in there, but I still don't know if I can buy Buffy's forgiveness here.

[Princessmela]

I will admit that I may be looking at Spike through rose tinted glasses.  I'm just saying that Spike a) had someone to live for and b) probably doesn't deal with his emotions.  I'm not saying that Spike is in the right here... Actually I think Angel mourned properly while Spike hasnt even begun to scratch the surface of his mourning.  

I think the mourning patterns show two souled vampires who were at a loss until Buffy came into thier lives.  If anything it says more about The character of Buffy.  However, I
will admit that once Angel saw the good he could do in the world something clicked and he was an amazing champion of the helpless.  


I have an interesting question though... Is Xander responsible for his AR on Buffy in "the pack?".  I'm inclined to say yes but I  would like to hear other thoughts on this

I do want to apologize for typos, I primarily access this from my tap a talk application on my iPhone which can be very tricky to type on.

[BlasterBoy]

I will admit that I may be looking at Spike through rose tinted glasses.  I'm just saying that Spike a) had someone to live for and b) probably doesn't deal with his emotions.  I'm not saying that Spike is in the right here... Actually I think Angel mourned properly while Spike hasnt even begun to scratch the surface of his mourning.  

I think the mourning patterns show two souled vampires who were at a loss until Buffy came into thier lives.  If anything it says more about The character of Buffy.  However, I
will admit that once Angel saw the good he could do in the world something clicked and he was an amazing champion of the helpless.

I definitely agree with your first point. I love that one of the differences between Angel getting a soul and Spike getting a soul is that as Angel gets his soul, he loses the love of his life (Darla) and as Spike gets his soul, he gains the love of his life (Buffy). For your second point, I'd say Spike does deal with his emotions, just not in a very healthy way.

Yes, they were both very lost without Buffy. But Angel found his purpose before he ever talked to Buffy, he just needed to see her, which I think says more about Angel's character than Buffy. She didn't really do much until season 3 to send him on his path.

I have an interesting question though... Is Xander responsible for his AR on Buffy in "the pack?".  I'm inclined to say yes but I  would like to hear other thoughts on this

I do want to apologize for typos, I primarily access this from my tap a talk application on my iPhone which can be very tricky to type on.

Oh, wow, very interesting question....hmm, I haven't seen "The Pack" in the longest time so I'm not all that sure about the circumstances of his possession and such. All I remember is that Xander remembered what he did which makes me inclined to say yes, as well. Just the fact that he can remember reminds me of the whole soul/soulless situation.

[FaithLehane]

As much as I'm sickened by Spike's AR

When people get pissy at him I bring up Xander's AR......There is a difference...but it's as hard as dicifering what part Billy had in bringing out the Misogyny in the boys on Ats.

[beth]

With all do respect, Buffy told him to get out he had already done enough in chosen but Spike continued to stay to make sure it was finnished.  Maybe he didnt know he was going to die going into battle but it is our choices that determine who we are. I think it was not jealousy that made him wear the amulet I think it was to keep Buffy from wearing it.   

I agree that Spike was heroic for just going into battle and facing these odds, knowing that he's probably going to die. My only point was that he didn't know he was definitely going to die, so in "Chosen", he's just as heroic as Anya or Xander.

He may never have stopped suffering, but Spike getting a soul was a much easier process than it was for Angel.  But Spike never has a chance to get this knowledge and deal with his evil. The writers hinted at it in "Get It Done" where he found that to become a person he had to embrace his dark side but not let it control him, but it felt really rushed and abrupt, especially when we can compare it to Angel's journey, who had a whole eight years to figure this stuff out.

But, I think Princessmeia's point is that Spike didn't merely go into a dangerous battle, as did the others, but sacrificed himself in order to save humanity at the point where he 1) knew his death was a certainty, and 2) could have avoided it. 

I think Spike's soul-getting is actually a more difficult process, since he chooses to get it and fights for it, rather than randomly being cursed with it.  But I agree, there is way less time to see him dealing with his soul-having issues than there is to see Angel deal with his.

[

Speaking of being to good for someone I think Spike was too Good for Buffy.

Well, to be fair, Spike totally egged Buffy on and played on her inadequacies. He wasn't an innocent victim Buffy used in season 6. He reaffirms Buffy's self-doubt by telling her that she came back wrong in "Smashed". In "Dead Things", he was perfectly happy with the beating it seemed. She hits him and he says, "Put it all on me". Both of them were pretty guilty and full of issues, as you say. I don't think Spike was too good for Buffy. I just think they were both seriously messed up during that time.

Well, I do think Spike turns to this method of playing on Buffy's feelings of self-doubt and self-loathing, but only at the point when he begins to feel other, more positive, methods for getting through to her are not working.  Not saying he doesn't bear responsibility for this bad behavior, because he absolutely does.  But I feel like it's a bit of a last-ditch effort on his part. I don't think he was actually happy with the beating, but his own self-loathing, his love for Buffy, and his lack of a moral compass even in terms of how he himself should be treated, makes his unable to see how wrong this is.

I think Fool for Love illustrates this pattern of Spike's with women in a pretty explicit way.

I'd agree with that in season 5 (in "Fool For Love"). But I think that seriously changes in season 6 when Buffy gives Spike his wish to be romantically involved her and he mistakes it as love. He thinks he's found the person that is as dark and twisted as he is, that he can have a great, messy love with. But in the end, it turns out that his fear of being worthless come true again (in "As You Were") and he needs to convince himself that he isn't worthless by convincing himself that Buffy loves him in "Seeing Red".
 

For Spike, I think it's also about self-loathing, in terms of how he believes he should be treated and allows himself to be treated; but it's also about working through and breaking the pattern of loving someone who looks down on him, due to his own feelings of inadequacy; about attraction to good rather than evil; about fighting his own way out of darkness; and of course, his romantic and sexual attraction to Buffy herself.

I'd agree with all of this except for "about attraction to good rather than evil". In season 6, at least, I think he is incredibly attracted to how sick and dark Buffy has become. It's one of the reasons he loves slayers (among many, many others): their inherent darkness and the fact that, in the end, they are killers, just like him. In season 7, yes, I think he sees Buffy as a symbol of good that he works so hard to become. But in season 6, I think it's really the evil in Buffy as opposed to the good that turns him on.

Look, we are never going to agree on this, but that's okay, because it's a fascinating discussion.  No, I think his attraction to Buffy in 5, 6 and 7 is about being attracted to good, because he has started on the path to redemption, and she is symbolically meaningful to him in that way.  Unfortunately for him, in season 6, he's unable to rely and model himself on the strength and goodness that attracted him to her, because she's mostly lost it, and instead, he has to take care of her.  But he doesn't yet have the ability (pre-soul) to avoid reverting to very bad patterns when they seem to be what she wants.

How is the AR treated as worse than murder in terms of what Angel did? How exactly does he pay? Because I've always been very put-off by the fact that Spike almost rapes Buffy in season 6 and then at the end of season 7, she trusts him unconditionally. I know there's tons of development in there, but I still don't know if I can buy Buffy's forgiveness here.

Spike is tortured throughout season 7, physically and mentally.  In the school basement (where they leave him for way to long); in that freaking cave with the Bringers; by the First triggering him and making him murder while souled...on and on and on. 

To me, part of the problem with the AR is that "getting past it" is very sensitive and difficult. But I think this is part of the problem with choosing to use the AR in the first place.

Actually I think Angel mourned properly while Spike hasnt even begun to scratch the surface of his mourning. 

I have an interesting question though... Is Xander responsible for his AR on Buffy in "the pack?".  I'm inclined to say yes but I  would like to hear other thoughts on this

Agree about where Spike is in the grieving process as opposed to Angel.  I've always been interested in the hyena Xander question, and have seen this raised in some fanfic.

[BlasterBoy]

As much as I'm sickened by Spike's AR

When people get pissy at him I bring up Xander's AR......There is a difference...but it's as hard as dicifering what part Billy had in bringing out the Misogyny in the boys on Ats.

Well the difference is also that Spike is under no mind control, no spell or anything, it's just him. True, one could compare soulless vampires to the hyena spell or the spell in Billy but I think it's fair to say that soulless creatures represent more of the human than these spells do...by a lot, especially when the soulless character has been a main character for three years. It's like if hyena!Xander was a character from "The Pack" until season 3 and then did the AR at the end of season 3. It would automatically make it seem a lot worse. And the other difference is that one year later, Buffy is lying in Spike's arms, trusting and loving him unconditionally. It just seems so wrong to me.

But, I think Princessmeia's point is that Spike didn't merely go into a dangerous battle, as did the others, but sacrificed himself in order to save humanity at the point where he 1) knew his death was a certainty, and 2) could have avoided it.

How did he know his death was a certainty and how could have possibly avoided it? The amulet seemed attached to him, like it was tearing him up from the inside out. I don't think he could have just taken it off. He went in there being very heroic, knowing very well that he could die but fought anyways...for humanity. And that's heroic. But that's also just what Anya and Andrew did. Andrew's possibly even more heroic than Spike here because he's just a human going into to fight. He doesn't back off and he faces his fears.

I think Spike's soul-getting is actually a more difficult process, since he chooses to get it and fights for it, rather than randomly being cursed with it.  But I agree, there is way less time to see him dealing with his soul-having issues than there is to see Angel deal with his.

I agree with this. It definitely says a good deal about Spike pre-soul that he goes and seeks it out to.

Well, I do think Spike turns to this method of playing on Buffy's feelings of self-doubt and self-loathing, but only at the point when he begins to feel other, more positive, methods for getting through to her are not working.  Not saying he doesn't bear responsibility for this bad behavior, because he absolutely does.  But I feel like it's a bit of a last-ditch effort on his part. I don't think he was actually happy with the beating, but his own self-loathing, his love for Buffy, and his lack of a moral compass even in terms of how he himself should be treated, makes his unable to see how wrong this is.

I don't think Spike ever did what he did in order to help Buffy. It did help Buffy in the long run but it was more accidental than on purpose. Spike played on Buffy's feelings of self-loathing in order to make her twisted enough to be with him, in his mind. Maybe if she's this dark monster like I know slayers are, then I can be with her. He doesn't see it as wrong, and I agree with you on that one. But I think he liked the beating because that's the kind of guy that Spike is. He feeds off this darkness because, metaphorically speaking at least, he is this darkness.

Look, we are never going to agree on this, but that's okay, because it's a fascinating discussion.  No, I think his attraction to Buffy in 5, 6 and 7 is about being attracted to good, because he has started on the path to redemption, and she is symbolically meaningful to him in that way.  Unfortunately for him, in season 6, he's unable to rely and model himself on the strength and goodness that attracted him to her, because she's mostly lost it, and instead, he has to take care of her.  But he doesn't yet have the ability (pre-soul) to avoid reverting to very bad patterns when they seem to be what she wants.

I know we aren't going to agree, but I understand where you're coming from. And in a way, I agree. But I think where we differ is season 6. He's moving towards redemption in season 5, trying to become a better man to be worthy of Buffy. And in season 6, he sees (like you said) that this great woman he looks up to is really human and is messed up in her own ways. And that really stops him in his tracks, making him into a monster again. It isn't until "Seeing Red" that he sees what he's becoming again and makes his last effort to change. I don't see his actions in season 6 as him taking care of her, but mostly of him embracing her darkness and both of them taking advantage of each other. For each of them, their motivations are incredibly selfish (post-OMWF).

Spike is tortured throughout season 7, physically and mentally.  In the school basement (where they leave him for way to long); in that freaking cave with the Bringers; by the First triggering him and making him murder while souled...on and on and on. 

To me, part of the problem with the AR is that "getting past it" is very sensitive and difficult. But I think this is part of the problem with choosing to use the AR in the first place.

But none of this is directly related to the AR. And yes, he is stuck in the school basement, but Buffy's the one that brought him out of there. Buffy, who he almost raped, is the first to forgive him and help become a better man. I know that it's the right thing to do and I know that Buffy is the kind of person who would, but I can't look past the fact that it's rape. You don't just trust this person again. A whole lot of people consider it worse than murder and it's such an invasion and takes away a person's strength....I just don't understand Buffy letting it go so easily.

And I guess that makes me inclined to agree with you about the AR being a bad idea in the first place. But I think the execution of it in season 6 was so well done and realistic and it was all built up to that moment very well. And yes, it's a difficult subject, but I think Buffy is the kind of show that could've done it. but it really fell flat for me.