Angel: Guilty or Not Guilty?

[beth]

A while back, the weekly poll posed the question of whether Angel is responsible for the actions of Angelus.  The vast majority of those who responded said no.  I've been thinking about this question a lot, and although I was previously unsure, I'm now pretty convinced that Angel is responsible.  I'd love to discuss my reasons, and hear yours, if anyone else is interested in this topic.

[FaithLehane]

He's Definitely an Accessory to Murder............But He coudn't stop Angelus.....anymore than Angelus could stop Angel from doing all the Good that he's done.
I think this argument goes back to the idea that a part of the Human stays when the Demon takes over......in which case Liam was a jackass and did some pretty not Good stuff......which means Angel with a Soul is basically Liam but he has the memories of killing thousands of people......I'm not willing to say he is responable.....in that if I was on a jury...that I would convict him .........He may look like the killer......but he didn't do the killing.
Though the problem does become.....where does Sam and the 70's Diner Guy rate in all this .......It was Angel with a Soul and he did have a hand in their deaths......plus theres the tiny issue of all the people in The Hyperion Hotel in 1952.
Way to convoluted to come up with a halfway decent answer.

[beth]

Thanks for replying to this, 'cause I really want to discuss it. It is a really complicated subject, which is why I like it. This is my thinking about it so far:

I first started thinking about the curse itself.  The curse makes absolutely no sense unless the gypsies were 100% certain that the soul would cause the one being cursed to be tormented by guilt.  They couldn't simply assume that Angel would have a personality that would make him feel guilty even if he wasn't really responsible.  So they had to have reason to believe that Angel was, in fact, responsible for Angelus's acts.

I think the reason is that, with or without a soul, the essential nature of the demon is the same.  The dark and evil impulses are always there.  It's just that the soul is the moral compass that allows Angel to feel the difference between right and wrong, and allows him to choose to act in accordance with that morality.  But the soul doesn't remove the demon or its desire to do evil -- that's what Angel struggles with all the time.  We see it as early as the "Angel" episode, when he's obviously tempted to feed on Joyce after she's been fed on by Darla; and we see it much more explicitly in AtS -- in the examples you mention, as well as others -- his desire to try and be Angelus in "Darla," in the Faith mind-walk, etc.

 Angel chooses to act differently because of the soul, but he is still the same demon as Angelus.  So I don't think he's wrong to hold himself responsible.   

.But He coudn't stop Angelus.

I wonder.  Spike does a lot of good before he ever gets a soul.  And although he has a chip, the chip doesn't stop him from doing evil, it just stops him from physically harming humans.  Spike chooses, pre-soul, to try not to be evil -- chooses, in fact, to get a soul.  I think this is because Spike retained much more humanity after becoming a vampire than Angel did, and because William was a good man, while Liam, though not evil, was kind of a lazy, drunken lout.

I'm not willing to say he is responable.....in that if I was on a jury...that I would convict him .........He may look like the killer......but he didn't do the killing.

I was thinking about this, because in NY, if you suffer from dissociative (multiple personality) disorder, you are legally responsible, i.e., you can't be found not guilty by reason of insanity, for a crime committed by a personality other than your dominant personality; the thinking being that all of the personalities are part of you.  Similar to the Angel/Angelus/same demon situation, kind of.

That's my take.  I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

[FaithLehane]

The Curse is Pure Revenge
I'm Certain the Kalderash people weren't .....Debating wether it would affect Angel.....because they only knew Angelus.
I'm with you on the fact that the Demon is always there (I said something to that effect on a previous epi).
Angel CHOOSES to do Good........He may faulter(Sometimes) because Liam was a lunkhead......but he does CHOOSE.
Spike is something of an anomaly.....William was Good.....therefor Spike was going to gravitate more towards doing good, The Guy who killed two innocent slayers ...and gloated......Turns to good WTH??Lol
 When he gets the Chip......he still feels the urge to Kill...what was that qoute comparing him to a Murderer in prison......So what does he do just to keep himself from going nutty ......he turns on his own kind.....and that IS just for the KILL.
Angel kills his own kind because HE doesn't want innocent people to die.
I really do think it comes down to who they were befor they were turned
and it was never made more clear than when we were introduced to Willows Vamp Self.

Vamps would have a hard time going on a Murderous rampage through New York (Oh wait Spike DID Lol) No Insanity plead for them.

[bdegrande]

I was one of the few who voted that Angel was responsible.  Despite occasional statements to the contrary, it is clear that vampires do retain a lot of their original personality, and Angelus is a lot more sadistic and vicious than most vampires. Even WITH a soul, Angel is capable of massacres, remember him locking the Wolfram and Hart lawyers up with Drusilla and Darla?

The gypsy curse is pure idiocy. What good is bringing Angelus back supposed to do the gypsies or anyone else (except for us viewers, of course, who get to watch a far more interesting characrter)?

[beth]

The Curse is Pure Revenge
I'm Certain the Kalderash people weren't .....Debating wether it would affect Angel.....because they only knew Angelus.

I agree they weren't debating this issue, because there was nothing to debate -- they knew whoever Angelus became after the curse, he would feel responsible (the point of the curse) because he was responsible.

The gypsy curse is pure idiocy. What good is bringing Angelus back supposed to do the gypsies or anyone else (except for us viewers, of course, who get to watch a far more interesting characrter)?

The only argument I can come up with about this is that, as Jenny's uncle says, (and FaithLehane mentions above) the gypsies didn't want justice, they wanted vengeance.  So their goal was to make Angelus/Angel suffer.  If he managed to find happiness and the suffering stopped, the curse would no longer be serving their purpose; in that case, they would want to stop that happiness, which would occur if the soul were removed.  They didn't care if he became a sadistic killer again; they weren't concerned with the safety of others; they simply wanted vengeance.  As to why there wasn't some other way to prevent him from being happy other than removing his soul...no answer.

Another example of Angel doing wrong or evil despite his soul -- the attempted murder of Wesley.

[hellmouth]

I don't agree with using the attempted murder of Wesley as an example of Angel performing evil. That was a reaction to Wesley's betrayal and delivering Connor to Angel's arch-enemy to be taken to a hell dimension. I think most of us would have done the same thing regardless of soul, vampire, etc.

[FaithLehane]

@Beth
Agreed
The Kalderash Clan only had Suffering in mind.
The Curse is kinda weird....When you get right down to it.......The kalderash People were still around....Presumably Watching Angel(Jenny was anyway).....Making sure He didn't get "Happy"....But even with the suffering.....they should have realized there would be a Good chance that when that dropped.....They were 1st on Angelus' list.......Buffy may have made him feel "Human" but they tortured him for 100yrs with that Soul.


I Have a completely different problem with the Attempt on Wesley's Life.

[beth]

I don't agree with using the attempted murder of Wesley as an example of Angel performing evil. That was a reaction to Wesley's betrayal and delivering Connor to Angel's arch-enemy to be taken to a hell dimension. I think most of us would have done the same thing regardless of soul, vampire, etc.

I think a lot of people would have the same desire or impulse, but would not act on it.  Angel does, because he is always capable, and often desirous, of doing  murder because of his demon. (The up-close-and-personal smothering someone you know with a pillow is particularly intimate and brutal). Murder of humans in the Verse never seems meant to be viewed as justified or excusable, even if the reasons leading up to the act are understandable or explainable.

I Have a completely different problem with the Attempt on Wesley's Life.

What is it?

[FaithLehane]

Well


My Biggest Problem Is
Wesley Didn't Intend On Giving Connor To Holtz Or Justine.
He Was Going To Leave With Connor and NOT Come Back Until He Could Find A Way Around The (Fake)Prophecy.
He Was Brutally Attacked By Justine......& Then Angel ......For wanting to SAVE Connor's Life.....Like Fred Said They Should Find Out Why....Wes Did What He Did Befor Going Crazy At Him.
But I Also Agree With Her Other Point ......Which Was Wes Should Have Said Something.

[beth]

@FaithLehane
Yes.  I may have mentioned that I've only seen AtS once, so I'm very aware that some of my feelings might change on repeat viewing, but my initial reaction was to feel very, very sympathetic to Wesley through all of this, and kind of angry at everyone else.  But yes, he should have told someone.  Keeping secrets always ends in disaster in Buffy and AtS.

[FaithLehane]

@Beth

I've Watched The Angel Series...I'd Say Roughly 20 Times.....And My Feelings On That Storyline Havn't Changed....I Still Feel For Wesley.

[Princessmela]

Okay so I m gave been running this true my head for quite sometime and I don't think that Angel is responsible for what he did as Angelus.   It is clear that while Angel remembers it all and feels bad about it that Angel would have never tortured, raped, and murdered an innocent Drusilla. 

However,  this doesn't exempt him for some of the awful things that he did as a human. 

What I have an issue with why people blame soulful Spike for an attempted rape of Buffy before he had a soul.  I'm not saying it was anyone on this board but I have heard it said before.

[BlasterBoy]

I think Angel is definitely responsible for the actions of Angelus. One of my favorite things about this series is that Angel and Angelus aren't that different. They are the same 'person', really. The only difference is that Angelus is only the dark side of Angel while Angel is the whole package. Angel has evil in him and like he said in Amends, "It's not the demon that needs killing, it's the man". The series delves into the idea that every human being has a primal darkness and evil inside of him (like we see in "Reprise" with the home office) and that idea only really works if Angelus is an extension of Angel himself as opposed to a separate being. Even in Buffy, it starts off as clear cut that soul = good and soulless = bad, but we see that (especially in "Lie to Me") this is a lie. And it slowly is revealed over time. In "Doppelgangland", Buffy says that the vampire has nothing to do with the human and Angel says, "Actually --" but Buffy cuts him off. And of course it all becomes clear that the demon and the person aren't that separate when we see what Spike is capable of without a soul.

I think people see Angelus as a completely evil figure that doesn't have a conscience and has no chance at redemption because he is a monster. Yet, at the same time, William the Bloody, the sadistic vampire that was part of the Fanged Four, is treated as a sympathetic and very, very human character even before he gets his soul back (look at seasons five and six). And when Spike gets his soul back, he is treated as the same character. He isn't completely different, he is the same, essentially. So if Spike in season 7 of Buffy is responsible for his actions in season 5 and 6 of Buffy, why shouldn't Angel be responsible for his actions as Angelus?

[smartgirl63]

Spike is different. Spike is different from all vampires. He is able to love without a soul. Angel isn't able to love when he is Angelus.

Is it obvious that I love Spike?